New Handicapping System for the Trots

aussiebattler · October 2023

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

JayJay said:
The whole point is that under both these so called handicap systems, Harness Market share continues to plummet to hithertoo never seen depths...well under 12 % of overall turnover and returning now 42 cents in the dollar on stakes paid. It is unsustainable, it can't continue, it is living way beyond it's means.

Tell me how Wooliies or BHP would last in a free market place if they invested $100 million and lost $58 million. They would go broke and shut down. Something has to change in an awful big hurry.

Yeah not sure the handicapping system is to blame for that.
How do you know unless there is change to compare? One thing i do know is alot of people have dropped out of the industry since the new handicapping system has been introduced.

Those people probably leave regardless, doesn’t matter what the system is people whinge and moan just like they did about M/C/R some people just have short memories and forget.

I dont think thats 100% right , the feedback I got that they didnt want to race out of form metro horses with their C1/R2 horse.

That is correct I don't think there is a need to race against these horses with a lower hwoe horse but sometimes there just isn't another opportunity on the program. It could be created and there are solutions/adjustments that could correct that in the current system to make the industry more accepting of it.

Under MCR the R Class would have separated these horses further at community tracks or in community type races but there still could have been opportunities created for them. Thereugo has dropped a long way from his glory days he raced under MCR and hasn't actually been able to win yet in the L5$LT4K, he has done a wonderful job for his owners and should be given credit for that .

I am just comparing LTP and handicapping systems, I compared him to horse like Caruba when looking at their LTP (lifetime performance) which has mainly raced under the NBM. If based on Stakes type won, being it low staked at a community meeting or higher staked like a metro or country staked in between

my observations comparing what we had to what we have and what we may get NR (they put a lock on NR dropping below 50 in WA so that will have to be adjusted somehow if they decide to convert to it)

note: Old MCR with 4 2yo races free 2 3YO races free coming back as a C0 was taken into account)

Thereugo based on LTP R18/C16/M3 (HWOE L15 (H$134876.00) NR87) so a straight HWOE system wont suit which is why he is in the L5$ LT races his NR would put him approx in L10/11 as a comparison (thats approx what the NR would equate to in Level terms )

Caruba based on LTP R14/C1/M1 HWOE L12 (H$78954.99) NR52 again straight HWOE system wont suit which is why it races in L5$ LT races ,its NR in other states may equate to lower than its WA NR due to the 50 point lock it would take some going through to adjust it

some horses they race against in the L5$ LT 4k would be R1/C1/M0 HWOE L4 (H$7485) NR50 Capped

I would Judge that horse would be better to not have to come up against the first 2 to give it a better opportunity to earn and go up in hwoe/L5$LT/NR so it to can reward its owners its obviously a lower class its also out of form .The only reason it may be in the L5$LT races is because it didn't have enough form to get in to the L4 race and its only opportunity to start was in the L5$LT race due to it being selected in reverse points order

I guess in Summary each system has its flaw/advantages/disadvantages and we have to make the most out of what we are running under for our own individual horses but we need developers to create fair system for all

LightningJake · October 2023

Chopchop43 said:
So just out of curiosity @LightningJake what exactly about that post do you dislike ??

Simple.

I don't think a horse that made it to that mark should be able to drop back that far.

What about the connections of the other horses? I know of owners that have pulled horses from a race he has been nominated in simply because they know their horse doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell.

Hence why I disliked your post.

Chopchop43 · October 2023

LightningJake said:

Chopchop43 said:
So just out of curiosity @LightningJake what exactly about that post do you dislike ??
Simple.

I don't think a horse that made it to that mark should be able to drop back that far.

What about the connections of the other horses? I know of owners that have pulled horses from a race he has been nominated in simply because they know their horse doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell.

Hence why I disliked your post.

then that's one more horse out the system prematurely, the example.of thereugo shows that just because you did race in the city some amount of time ago doesn't mean your necessarily racing in that type of form at the present time, does that horse not deserve the right to at least attempt to earn??? Current form and form from years ago are 2 completely different things. Better yet the horse isn't winning in the low class races its competing in as we speak so would you be worried about your hirse competing against it now ??? I think not

AbbysAce · October 2023

Lets compare R class racing to $ HWOE racing 5 years apart.

7/10/2018 R class handicapping.

9 races, 10 horses in 7 races, 9 in 1 race, 8 in 1 race.

9/10/2023 $HWOE handicapping.

7 races, 10 horses in 4 races, 9 in 1 race, 6 in 1 race, 5 in 1 race.

And scratchings still to come out.

And dont forget Bunbury's wednesday bumper card.

7 races, 11 in 1 race, 8 in 2 races, 7 in 2 races, 1 race has 6, 1 race has 4.

Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut, but when they do it, race fields will get smaller.

One thing about turnover is your need 8 running for a 3rd dividend to maximise turnover.

Chopchop43 · October 2023

AbbysAce said:
Lets compare R class racing to $ HWOE racing 5 years apart.

7/10/2018 R class handicapping.

9 races, 10 horses in 7 races, 9 in 1 race, 8 in 1 race.

9/10/2023 $HWOE handicapping.

7 races, 10 horses in 4 races, 9 in 1 race, 6 in 1 race, 5 in 1 race.

And scratchings still to come out.

And dont forget Bunbury's wednesday bumper card.

7 races, 11 in 1 race, 8 in 2 races, 7 in 2 races, 1 race has 6, 1 race has 4.

Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut, but when they do it, race fields will get smaller.

One thing about turnover is your need 8 running for a 3rd dividend to maximise turnover.

I think you'll find a large portion of the industry were more than happy with the mcr system , unfortunately a small percentage of people got there way with getting it scraped for what is two fundamentally floored systems and not pot shotting anyone in this forum but I find it funny that the same people whinging how the mcr system wasn't fair to them, are the same ones whinging about the system brought in to appease them, I think sometimes certain people just aren't happy unless they got something to sook about

Markovina · October 2023

Chopchop43 said:

AbbysAce said:
Lets compare R class racing to $ HWOE racing 5 years apart.

7/10/2018 R class handicapping.

9 races, 10 horses in 7 races, 9 in 1 race, 8 in 1 race.

9/10/2023 $HWOE handicapping.

7 races, 10 horses in 4 races, 9 in 1 race, 6 in 1 race, 5 in 1 race.

And scratchings still to come out.

And dont forget Bunbury's wednesday bumper card.

7 races, 11 in 1 race, 8 in 2 races, 7 in 2 races, 1 race has 6, 1 race has 4.

Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut, but when they do it, race fields will get smaller.

One thing about turnover is your need 8 running for a 3rd dividend to maximise turnover.

I think you'll find a large portion of the industry were more than happy with the mcr system , unfortunately a small percentage of people got there way with getting it scraped for what is two fundamentally floored systems and not pot shotting anyone in this forum but I find it funny that the same people whinging how the mcr system wasn't fair to them, are the same ones whinging about the system brought in to appease them, I think sometimes certain people just aren't happy unless they got something to sook about

Nothing has changed in 50 years re the sooks

Back then i knocked around with Trotting people - and across the board they were the biggest whinges of all time - it was like a hobby to some - they could win 5 Miracle Miles in a row - and they would still find something to complain about

This drop back in class re loss of form - would have been funny when Rhetts Law ( an Interdom Winner ) was about - because afterwards it does lose a fair amount of form and heart

In fact it could have ended up in a C1 at Kellerberrin and got beat - it wouldnt have wanted to hit the lead too early in the home straight - because it would have thought about it and fainted

LightningJake · October 2023

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Rocket_Reign · October 2023

LightningJake said:

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Horrendous turnover a million miles away and expensive to run, need any more?

Yilgarna · October 2023

A million miles away, lol, it’s 2 and a bit hours from Midland, and closer for local trainers (are trainers in small country centres allowed these days, or is that not good for turnover?).
Why don’t you switch to gallopers and buy a property on Matheson Road, you can conveniently walk to to the track?

getthechange · October 2023

value your opinion aussie and pleased to see your back posting

AbbysAce · October 2023

Rocket_Reign said:

LightningJake said:

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Horrendous turnover a million miles away and expensive to run, need any more?

And you still race your horses there =D>

Rocket_Reign · October 2023

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

LightningJake said:

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Horrendous turnover a million miles away and expensive to run, need any more?
And you still race your horses there =D>

Rarely, if they were run at a closer track I’d race there every week. It’s 3 hours away and races picked in reverse order so hard to get a whole float full of starters, to far away to only have 1 or 2 get a start

JayJay · October 2023

It is understandable that their is a divergence of opinion on what system is best, keep HWOE, adopt NR or come up with something else....that's life.

But at the risk of boring some, and copping more labels, the following are not my opinions but RWWA figures for the Financial Year 2023. These are "return on dollar figures" based on income versus stakes paid. You can ignore or take on board, up to you.

Overall Industry figures, with perhaps a tail of "Covid bounce" in them, (when all turnover increased for a while) show a revenue/stakes paid percentage of 48.6 cents in the dollar for 2023 (July to July). Total revenue was $14,240,494 on stakes paid of $29,316, 350.

That has now fallen to around 42 cents in the dollar on latest figures.

For comparitive purposes, in the 2023 financial year, Gloucester Park Friday Night was 40.5 cents in the dollar, Gloucester Park Mid week was 56.8 cents in the dollar (obviously much lower stakes on Tuesdays), Wagin was 55.2, Narrogin 54.3 and Albany 60.5. Central Wheatbelt was 36.4 and Williams and Collie at 34.7 (running in the "turnover blackspot" of Sunday Afternoon) but overall average across all clubs and meetings was 48.6 cents in the dollar.

You don't bank percentages, you bank dollars and for Friday nights at GP, they generated $6,153,883 and paid stakes of $15,188, 250.....over ($9 million down the gurgler). And with the redevelopment, RWWA are about to spend $24.7 million of Industry funding to redevelop the venue whilst retaining an 800m track that will produce more of the same.

With the current figure now at 42 cents, if the cross code support was withdrawn, and who could blame the other codes if they demanded their proper share, and we raced for what we actually earn, the following would apply:

Metro:

The $19,000 $L5 20k down to $7980

The $21,000 races down to $8820

The $25,000 conditioned pace down to $10,500

The $31,000 FFA down to $13,020

Country:

$9360 races down to $3930 and community $6240 races down to 2620.

That is the reality of not doing anything to what we are currently generating in turnover (under 12% of overall turnover).

And if you think reducing the footprint, by shutting down "distant" country clubs, that all of today's A grade trainers fully patronised in their early days (and some still do).....if you think that is going to boost turnover to a level that sustains our current stakes payout, and if you think the other codes are going to continue to subsidise harness without complaint, and if you think the current exodus of licensed personnel and dismal foaling numbers will magically turn around by the Industry doig nothing and continuing along our current path, then you are seriously dreaming.

An unsustainable business model cannot and will not be allowed to continue. The numbers are irrefutable no matter how much name calling you engage in. If you are happy racing for what we actually earn, fine, won't bother me in the slightest.

aussiebattler · October 2023

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

LightningJake said:

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Horrendous turnover a million miles away and expensive to run, need any more?
And you still race your horses there =D>

Rarely, if they were run at a closer track I’d race there every week. It’s 3 hours away and races picked in reverse order so hard to get a whole float full of starters, to far away to only have 1 or 2 get a start

Not true only L5LT4 is selected in reverse order

Markovina · October 2023

JayJay said:
It is understandable that their is a divergence of opinion on what system is best, keep HWOE, adopt NR or come up with something else....that's life.

But at the risk of boring some, and copping more labels, the following are not my opinions but RWWA figures for the Financial Year 2023. These are "return on dollar figures" based on income versus stakes paid. You can ignore or take on board, up to you.

Overall Industry figures, with perhaps a tail of "Covid bounce" in them, (when all turnover increased for a while) show a revenue/stakes paid percentage of 48.6 cents in the dollar for 2023 (July to July). Total revenue was $14,240,494 on stakes paid of $29,316, 350.
That has now fallen to around 42 cents in the dollar on latest figures.

For comparitive purposes, in the 2023 financial year, Gloucester Park Friday Night was 40.5 cents in the dollar, Gloucester Park Mid week was 56.8 cents in the dollar (obviously much lower stakes on Tuesdays), Wagin was 55.2, Narrogin 54.3 and Albany 60.5. Central Wheatbelt was 36.4 and Williams and Collie at 34.7 (running in the "turnover blackspot" of Sunday Afternoon) but overall average across all clubs and meetings was 48.6 cents in the dollar.

You don't bank percentages, you bank dollars and for Friday nights at GP, they generated $6,153,883 and paid stakes of $15,188, 250.....over ($9 million down the gurgler). And with the redevelopment, RWWA are about to spend $24.7 million of Industry funding to redevelop the venue whilst retaining an 800m track that will produce more of the same.

With the current figure now at 42 cents, if the cross code support was withdrawn, and who could blame the other codes if they demanded their proper share, and we raced for what we actually earn, the following would apply:

Metro:
The $19,000 $L5 20k down to $7980
The $21,000 races down to $8820
The $25,000 conditioned pace down to $10,500
The $31,000 FFA down to $13,020

Country:
$9360 races down to $3930 and community $6240 races down to 2620.

That is the reality of not doing anything to what we are currently generating in turnover (under 12% of overall turnover).

And if you think reducing the footprint, by shutting down "distant" country clubs, that all of today's A grade trainers fully patronised in their early days (and some still do).....if you think that is going to boost turnover to a level that sustains our current stakes payout, and if you think the other codes are going to continue to subsidise harness without complaint, and if you think the current exodus of licensed personnel and dismal foaling numbers will magically turn around by the Industry doig nothing and continuing along our current path, then you are seriously dreaming.

An unsustainable business model cannot and will not be allowed to continue. The numbers are irrefutable no matter how much name calling you engage in. If you are happy racing for what we actually earn, fine, won't bother me in the slightest.

Like i have said many times - heaven help WA Trotting - if a young Peter Vlandys type took over as CEO of the WA Greyhounds

Because he would be absolutely relentless in getting that codes fair share based on turnover - he would lobby politicians - he would be going to the media non stop - till he got his achieved result - and he would be saying stuff like - we are sick to death of propping up financially WA Harness racing -

As for the 24.7 million ( and keeping the same track size ) it is the biggest waste of money of all time - in fact theyd be better off gifting it to Social Housing because then someone might actually benefit from it

And i held off from it in my Oaks review ( and i didnt have a bet in the race ) but it is a 1000% disgrace that Turn The Page is not the classic Oaks winner of this year - it put in a herculian Gammalite type performance - but that atrociously unfair - 50 year old out of date - tin pot Goat track - in the words of the BOTRA President Donald Harper - " easily the worst Metropolitan track in Australiasia " it brought about - no matter how game it was - the defeat of Turn The Page

On a proper fair modern track TTP wins that classic race by 10-12 metres - spending 25 mil and keeping an 800 metre track - just beyond belief - it will set back harness racing in WA by about 35 years

Some times in some organisations - they nearly need to go broke - they nearly need the Liquidators to be changing the locks - before proper and meaningful change actually occurs

Rocket_Reign · October 2023

aussiebattler said:

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

LightningJake said:

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Horrendous turnover a million miles away and expensive to run, need any more?
And you still race your horses there =D>

Rarely, if they were run at a closer track I’d race there every week. It’s 3 hours away and races picked in reverse order so hard to get a whole float full of starters, to far away to only have 1 or 2 get a start
Not true only L5LT4 is selected in reverse order

Community preference, same thing. Few times I’ve nominated 4 for Keller with only 1-2 guaranteed to get a start so I take none, too far to go pay staff fuel etc for that. If it was a Sunday at GP same field preferences etc I’d go with the 1-2 starters

angelarobinson · October 2023

The facts and figures don't lie, you can all have your opinions but history tells us that closing clubs reduces the amount of participants Breeders, Owners, Trainers, Drivers which in turn leads to loss of turnover pretty simple maths.

Cant_Refuse · October 2023

. .

Markovina said:

JayJay said:
It is understandable that their is a divergence of opinion on what system is best, keep HWOE, adopt NR or come up with something else....that's life.

But at the risk of boring some, and copping more labels, the following are not my opinions but RWWA figures for the Financial Year 2023. These are "return on dollar figures" based on income versus stakes paid. You can ignore or take on board, up to you.

Overall Industry figures, with perhaps a tail of "Covid bounce" in them, (when all turnover increased for a while) show a revenue/stakes paid percentage of 48.6 cents in the dollar for 2023 (July to July). Total revenue was $14,240,494 on stakes paid of $29,316, 350.
That has now fallen to around 42 cents in the dollar on latest figures.

For comparitive purposes, in the 2023 financial year, Gloucester Park Friday Night was 40.5 cents in the dollar, Gloucester Park Mid week was 56.8 cents in the dollar (obviously much lower stakes on Tuesdays), Wagin was 55.2, Narrogin 54.3 and Albany 60.5. Central Wheatbelt was 36.4 and Williams and Collie at 34.7 (running in the "turnover blackspot" of Sunday Afternoon) but overall average across all clubs and meetings was 48.6 cents in the dollar.

You don't bank percentages, you bank dollars and for Friday nights at GP, they generated $6,153,883 and paid stakes of $15,188, 250.....over ($9 million down the gurgler). And with the redevelopment, RWWA are about to spend $24.7 million of Industry funding to redevelop the venue whilst retaining an 800m track that will produce more of the same.

With the current figure now at 42 cents, if the cross code support was withdrawn, and who could blame the other codes if they demanded their proper share, and we raced for what we actually earn, the following would apply:

Metro:
The $19,000 $L5 20k down to $7980
The $21,000 races down to $8820
The $25,000 conditioned pace down to $10,500
The $31,000 FFA down to $13,020

Country:
$9360 races down to $3930 and community $6240 races down to 2620.

That is the reality of not doing anything to what we are currently generating in turnover (under 12% of overall turnover).

And if you think reducing the footprint, by shutting down "distant" country clubs, that all of today's A grade trainers fully patronised in their early days (and some still do).....if you think that is going to boost turnover to a level that sustains our current stakes payout, and if you think the other codes are going to continue to subsidise harness without complaint, and if you think the current exodus of licensed personnel and dismal foaling numbers will magically turn around by the Industry doig nothing and continuing along our current path, then you are seriously dreaming.

An unsustainable business model cannot and will not be allowed to continue. The numbers are irrefutable no matter how much name calling you engage in. If you are happy racing for what we actually earn, fine, won't bother me in the slightest.

Like i have said many times - heaven help WA Trotting - if a young Peter Vlandys type took over as CEO of the WA Greyhounds

Because he would be absolutely relentless in getting that codes fair share based on turnover - he would lobby politicians - he would be going to the media non stop - till he got his achieved result - and he would be saying stuff like - we are sick to death of propping up financially WA Harness racing -

As for the 24.7 million ( and keeping the same track size ) it is the biggest waste of money of all time - in fact theyd be better off gifting it to Social Housing because then someone might actually benefit from it

And i held off from it in my Oaks review ( and i didnt have a bet in the race ) but it is a 1000% disgrace that Turn The Page is not the classic Oaks winner of this year - it put in a herculian Gammalite type performance - but that atrociously unfair - 50 year old out of date - tin pot Goat track - in the words of the BOTRA President Donald Harper - " easily the worst Metropolitan track in Australiasia " it brought about - no matter how game it was - the defeat of Turn The Page

On a proper fair modern track TTP wins that classic race by 10-12 metres - spending 25 mil and keeping an 800 metre track - just beyond belief - it will set back harness racing in WA by about 35 years

Some times in some organisations - they nearly need to go broke - they nearly need the Liquidators to be changing the locks - before proper and meaningful change actually occurs

geez the shit you say is getting stupider and stupider everytime you post.

getthechange · October 2023

Rocket_Reign said:

aussiebattler said:

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

LightningJake said:

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Horrendous turnover a million miles away and expensive to run, need any more?
And you still race your horses there =D>

Rarely, if they were run at a closer track I’d race there every week. It’s 3 hours away and races picked in reverse order so hard to get a whole float full of starters, to far away to only have 1 or 2 get a start
Not true only L5LT4 is selected in reverse order

Community preference, same thing. Few times I’ve nominated 4 for Keller with only 1-2 guaranteed to get a start so I take none, too far to go pay staff fuel etc for that. If it was a Sunday at GP same field preferences etc I’d go with the 1-2 starters

considerable difference between reverse order and community preference(see below) but

both make it hard to gauge which horses will get a start but fewer horses locked out under community preference

5. Community Race Meetings Fields for Community race meetings will be selected in descending FSP order
with a preference in field selection given to horses that

have NOT:
A. Won 3 or more races with Stakes > $6,499.99 in their last 10 starts,

B. Won 1 or more race(s) with stakes > $14,999 in their last 10 starts.

6. As part of a rotation some races will be for horses with 5+ WA starts and selected entirely on L5$ in
ascending order (i.e. lowest to highest). In the event there are multiple horses on the same L5$ and there
are less positions in the field available, then to determine the horse/s selected the following will applyA. Horse/s with the Lowest FSP.
B. Random ballot.

getthechange · October 2023

Rocket_Reign said:

aussiebattler said:

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

LightningJake said:

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Horrendous turnover a million miles away and expensive to run, need any more?
And you still race your horses there =D>

Rarely, if they were run at a closer track I’d race there every week. It’s 3 hours away and races picked in reverse order so hard to get a whole float full of starters, to far away to only have 1 or 2 get a start
Not true only L5LT4 is selected in reverse order

Community preference, same thing. Few times I’ve nominated 4 for Keller with only 1-2 guaranteed to get a start so I take none, too far to go pay staff fuel etc for that. If it was a Sunday at GP same field preferences etc I’d go with the 1-2 starters

metro trained horses that go o Keller could start on Tuesdays if they wished but their trainers choose to travel to where they can to some degree avoid the top stables

move those outer meetings to GP sundays and they will probably get out as the leading stables will dominate

Country and hobby trainers used to have a lot of options in kal Meredin Trayning - wyalkatchem

goomalling katanning to duck the leading trainers but kellerberrin is the only NE track left

from your perspective GP Sundays would result in more winners but probably less trainers and horses in the industry . NE rationalised pretty much by themselves and deserve industry support for that not being banished

Rocket_Reign · October 2023

getthechange said:

Rocket_Reign said:

aussiebattler said:

Rocket_Reign said:

AbbysAce said:

Rocket_Reign said:

LightningJake said:

AbbysAce said:
Yes i know , Kellaberrin should be shut

Please enligthen us with your reasoning.

Horrendous turnover a million miles away and expensive to run, need any more?
And you still race your horses there =D>

Rarely, if they were run at a closer track I’d race there every week. It’s 3 hours away and races picked in reverse order so hard to get a whole float full of starters, to far away to only have 1 or 2 get a start
Not true only L5LT4 is selected in reverse order

Community preference, same thing. Few times I’ve nominated 4 for Keller with only 1-2 guaranteed to get a start so I take none, too far to go pay staff fuel etc for that. If it was a Sunday at GP same field preferences etc I’d go with the 1-2 starters
metro trained horses that go o Keller could start on Tuesdays if they wished but their trainers choose to travel to where they can to some degree avoid the top stables
move those outer meetings to GP sundays and they will probably get out as the leading stables will dominate
Country and hobby trainers used to have a lot of options in kal Meredin Trayning - wyalkatchem
goomalling katanning to duck the leading trainers but kellerberrin is the only NE track left
from your perspective GP Sundays would result in more winners but probably less trainers and horses in the industry . NE rationalised pretty much by themselves and deserve industry support for that not being banished

Yeah not sure I agree that people training as a profession should be hampered from racing at meetings to appease some hobby trainers

Ivorytrunkey86 · October 2023

Two things trotting people hate…….change and things staying the same.

Markovina · October 2023

Cant_Refuse said:
. .
Markovina said:

JayJay said:
It is understandable that their is a divergence of opinion on what system is best, keep HWOE, adopt NR or come up with something else....that's life.

But at the risk of boring some, and copping more labels, the following are not my opinions but RWWA figures for the Financial Year 2023. These are "return on dollar figures" based on income versus stakes paid. You can ignore or take on board, up to you.

Overall Industry figures, with perhaps a tail of "Covid bounce" in them, (when all turnover increased for a while) show a revenue/stakes paid percentage of 48.6 cents in the dollar for 2023 (July to July). Total revenue was $14,240,494 on stakes paid of $29,316, 350.
That has now fallen to around 42 cents in the dollar on latest figures.

For comparitive purposes, in the 2023 financial year, Gloucester Park Friday Night was 40.5 cents in the dollar, Gloucester Park Mid week was 56.8 cents in the dollar (obviously much lower stakes on Tuesdays), Wagin was 55.2, Narrogin 54.3 and Albany 60.5. Central Wheatbelt was 36.4 and Williams and Collie at 34.7 (running in the "turnover blackspot" of Sunday Afternoon) but overall average across all clubs and meetings was 48.6 cents in the dollar.

You don't bank percentages, you bank dollars and for Friday nights at GP, they generated $6,153,883 and paid stakes of $15,188, 250.....over ($9 million down the gurgler). And with the redevelopment, RWWA are about to spend $24.7 million of Industry funding to redevelop the venue whilst retaining an 800m track that will produce more of the same.

With the current figure now at 42 cents, if the cross code support was withdrawn, and who could blame the other codes if they demanded their proper share, and we raced for what we actually earn, the following would apply:

Metro:
The $19,000 $L5 20k down to $7980
The $21,000 races down to $8820
The $25,000 conditioned pace down to $10,500
The $31,000 FFA down to $13,020

Country:
$9360 races down to $3930 and community $6240 races down to 2620.

That is the reality of not doing anything to what we are currently generating in turnover (under 12% of overall turnover).

And if you think reducing the footprint, by shutting down "distant" country clubs, that all of today's A grade trainers fully patronised in their early days (and some still do).....if you think that is going to boost turnover to a level that sustains our current stakes payout, and if you think the other codes are going to continue to subsidise harness without complaint, and if you think the current exodus of licensed personnel and dismal foaling numbers will magically turn around by the Industry doig nothing and continuing along our current path, then you are seriously dreaming.

An unsustainable business model cannot and will not be allowed to continue. The numbers are irrefutable no matter how much name calling you engage in. If you are happy racing for what we actually earn, fine, won't bother me in the slightest.

Like i have said many times - heaven help WA Trotting - if a young Peter Vlandys type took over as CEO of the WA Greyhounds

Because he would be absolutely relentless in getting that codes fair share based on turnover - he would lobby politicians - he would be going to the media non stop - till he got his achieved result - and he would be saying stuff like - we are sick to death of propping up financially WA Harness racing -

As for the 24.7 million ( and keeping the same track size ) it is the biggest waste of money of all time - in fact theyd be better off gifting it to Social Housing because then someone might actually benefit from it

And i held off from it in my Oaks review ( and i didnt have a bet in the race ) but it is a 1000% disgrace that Turn The Page is not the classic Oaks winner of this year - it put in a herculian Gammalite type performance - but that atrociously unfair - 50 year old out of date - tin pot Goat track - in the words of the BOTRA President Donald Harper - " easily the worst Metropolitan track in Australiasia " it brought about - no matter how game it was - the defeat of Turn The Page

On a proper fair modern track TTP wins that classic race by 10-12 metres - spending 25 mil and keeping an 800 metre track - just beyond belief - it will set back harness racing in WA by about 35 years

Some times in some organisations - they nearly need to go broke - they nearly need the Liquidators to be changing the locks - before proper and meaningful change actually occurs

geez the **** you say is getting stupider and stupider everytime you post.

In the words of the Tasmanian Harness Racing Chairman

"Its a hell of alot of money to spend in todays day and age for an 800 metre track "

Thats is what he said when he knocked on the head the new Devenport Harness Racing Track at their PREFERRED SITE inside the Devenport Gallops track - that was the biggest track they could configure with the land available their so common sense prevailed and they ruled it out

Instead with the 18 million they have bought land next to the Devenport Airport - building a beautiful big Harness Racing Track/Facility - plus a greyhound complex

I encourage you to contact some of your Qld participants - like Grant Dixon - Nathan Dawson - the McMullens re their multi/million development at the Gold Coast - and of course in your words tell them - that you only need an 800 metre track - they would get talking amongst themselves - and say look their is this guy over in WA - 3rd on the trainers premiership or whatever - telling us all here - that we only need an 800 metre track - you would be Laughed out of their state - and they would say that only an idiot in a multi million development with scarce and precious industry funds would want an 800 metre track

I will leave you with the words of the Tasmanian Harness Racing Chairman again " Its a hell of alot of money to spend in todays days and age for an 800 metre track "

Rocket_Reign · October 2023

Markovina said:

Cant_Refuse said:
. .
Markovina said:

JayJay said:
It is understandable that their is a divergence of opinion on what system is best, keep HWOE, adopt NR or come up with something else....that's life.

But at the risk of boring some, and copping more labels, the following are not my opinions but RWWA figures for the Financial Year 2023. These are "return on dollar figures" based on income versus stakes paid. You can ignore or take on board, up to you.

Overall Industry figures, with perhaps a tail of "Covid bounce" in them, (when all turnover increased for a while) show a revenue/stakes paid percentage of 48.6 cents in the dollar for 2023 (July to July). Total revenue was $14,240,494 on stakes paid of $29,316, 350.
That has now fallen to around 42 cents in the dollar on latest figures.

For comparitive purposes, in the 2023 financial year, Gloucester Park Friday Night was 40.5 cents in the dollar, Gloucester Park Mid week was 56.8 cents in the dollar (obviously much lower stakes on Tuesdays), Wagin was 55.2, Narrogin 54.3 and Albany 60.5. Central Wheatbelt was 36.4 and Williams and Collie at 34.7 (running in the "turnover blackspot" of Sunday Afternoon) but overall average across all clubs and meetings was 48.6 cents in the dollar.

You don't bank percentages, you bank dollars and for Friday nights at GP, they generated $6,153,883 and paid stakes of $15,188, 250.....over ($9 million down the gurgler). And with the redevelopment, RWWA are about to spend $24.7 million of Industry funding to redevelop the venue whilst retaining an 800m track that will produce more of the same.

With the current figure now at 42 cents, if the cross code support was withdrawn, and who could blame the other codes if they demanded their proper share, and we raced for what we actually earn, the following would apply:

Metro:
The $19,000 $L5 20k down to $7980
The $21,000 races down to $8820
The $25,000 conditioned pace down to $10,500
The $31,000 FFA down to $13,020

Country:
$9360 races down to $3930 and community $6240 races down to 2620.

That is the reality of not doing anything to what we are currently generating in turnover (under 12% of overall turnover).

And if you think reducing the footprint, by shutting down "distant" country clubs, that all of today's A grade trainers fully patronised in their early days (and some still do).....if you think that is going to boost turnover to a level that sustains our current stakes payout, and if you think the other codes are going to continue to subsidise harness without complaint, and if you think the current exodus of licensed personnel and dismal foaling numbers will magically turn around by the Industry doig nothing and continuing along our current path, then you are seriously dreaming.

An unsustainable business model cannot and will not be allowed to continue. The numbers are irrefutable no matter how much name calling you engage in. If you are happy racing for what we actually earn, fine, won't bother me in the slightest.

Like i have said many times - heaven help WA Trotting - if a young Peter Vlandys type took over as CEO of the WA Greyhounds

Because he would be absolutely relentless in getting that codes fair share based on turnover - he would lobby politicians - he would be going to the media non stop - till he got his achieved result - and he would be saying stuff like - we are sick to death of propping up financially WA Harness racing -

As for the 24.7 million ( and keeping the same track size ) it is the biggest waste of money of all time - in fact theyd be better off gifting it to Social Housing because then someone might actually benefit from it

And i held off from it in my Oaks review ( and i didnt have a bet in the race ) but it is a 1000% disgrace that Turn The Page is not the classic Oaks winner of this year - it put in a herculian Gammalite type performance - but that atrociously unfair - 50 year old out of date - tin pot Goat track - in the words of the BOTRA President Donald Harper - " easily the worst Metropolitan track in Australiasia " it brought about - no matter how game it was - the defeat of Turn The Page

On a proper fair modern track TTP wins that classic race by 10-12 metres - spending 25 mil and keeping an 800 metre track - just beyond belief - it will set back harness racing in WA by about 35 years

Some times in some organisations - they nearly need to go broke - they nearly need the Liquidators to be changing the locks - before proper and meaningful change actually occurs

geez the **** you say is getting stupider and stupider everytime you post.
In the words of the Tasmanian Harness Racing Chairman

"Its a hell of alot of money to spend in todays day and age for an 800 metre track "

Thats is what he said when he knocked on the head the new Devenport Harness Racing Track at their PREFERRED SITE inside the Devenport Gallops track - that was the biggest track they could configure with the land available their so common sense prevailed and they ruled it out

Instead with the 18 million they have bought land next to the Devenport Airport - building a beautiful big Harness Racing Track/Facility - plus a greyhound complex

I encourage you to contact some of your Qld participants - like Grant Dixon - Nathan Dawson - the McMullens re their multi/million development at the Gold Coast - and of course in your words tell them - that you only need an 800 metre track - they would get talking amongst themselves - and say look their is this guy over in WA - 3rd on the trainers premiership or whatever - telling us all here - that we only need an 800 metre track - you would be Laughed out of their state - and they would say that only an idiot in a multi million development with scarce and precious industry funds would want an 800 metre track

I will leave you with the words of the Tasmanian Harness Racing Chairman again " Its a hell of alot of money to spend in todays days and age for an 800 metre track "

Just to reiterate again, that guy is not me so not sure why you keep mentioning me in your replies to him.

JayJay · October 2023

Ivorytrunkey86 said:
Two things trotting people hate…….change and things staying the same.

But we all love self interest and breath taking arrogance, along with our favourite movie, Honey I Shrunk The Industry.

Chopchop43 · October 2023

Well in all fairness I think we all have alot of self interest when it comes to this game , if our horses don't earn, with the cost of everything related to the industry it's hard to justify owning/training our horses ,so whether or not what people are suggesting should happen going forward is the correct or incorrect decision , it's very much subjective and I don't think we can knock people for having there say or opinion on the issue as most of us on this forum have had recently. I think change is very much required how the industry or more importantly rwwa decide to implement this change well that's the million dollar question, I don't think we can compare the industry now to what it was in the 70s and 80s its a completely different game and it needs to evolve past that

angelarobinson · October 2023

Interesting comments Chopchop re the 70s&80s it's certainly a different industry we've dissolved not evolved but the younger generation wouldn't understand how good harness racing was and yes we handicapped back then. Also interesting when you do a problem solving exercise on harness racing the number one problem is the introduction of the mobile barrier(fact) down ward trend ever since.

JayJay · October 2023

It's a different industry alright, about a quarter of the size based on all factual industry indicators, and watched by and bet on by a minuscule fraction of the population.There about 40,000 permanent residents in the 20 sq km CBD of Perth and a further 90 odd thousand that enter Perth each day and it is a big night if there are a 100 on the lawn at the so called premier venue, owners and participants aside.

Whatever RWWA decide to do moving forward, proven failed strategies of the past cannot be repeated. Growing the industry by reducing the footprint and the failure to adequately handicap have shrunken the whole shooting match to rump status.

Rocket_Reign · October 2023

angelarobinson said:
Interesting comments Chopchop re the 70s&80s it's certainly a different industry we've dissolved not evolved but the younger generation wouldn't understand how good harness racing was and yes we handicapped back then. Also interesting when you do a problem solving exercise on harness racing the number one problem is the introduction of the mobile barrier(fact) down ward trend ever since.

Maybe the older generation are ruining it by living in the past and not allowing the industry to move forward, it’s a different world with technology now

JayJay · October 2023

Be genuinely interested to see your plans and strategies for moving the Industry forward.

G'day Punter!

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