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Harness & Greyhounds

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    3,322 posts
    Chariotsonfire said:

    Facts are facts Marko.


    Swans were broke and traded out, West Perth were broke and paid 10c in the dollar and Subiaco were very unpopular when they had access to a revenue stream that the other clubs did not have.

    The point is that they managed it poorly to be in their current situation.
    10 cents in the dollar hey 

    Its interesting how individuals or clubs can come to those arrangements - some would say most unfairly 

    When Bart Cummings got into a terrible financial situation  - lost  the family home at Vaucluse - he bought what $8 million worth of yearlings- there was some big Adelaide Chartered Tax Accounting Firm - and they were going to lease the horses and get a tax write off/deductin for their well off clients - but they walked from the deal - it went to court - but Bart was left with debt - it was his debt
    And the auctioneers - forgotten their name ( been around for 100 years ) they could have bankrupted him - alot would have - but they came to some arrangement - % of his training fees and winning fees etc- so you kept reading he was paying bits back to them -and he finally got released free from it 

    But when he died - the Auctioneer - not immediately -say 4 weeks afterwards - and said - not in a mean spirited way - but just factually - look we got basically nothing back -something ;like 250k to 300k for an $8 million debt
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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Didn't the WAFC guarantee West Perth player payments and other forms of support (loans etc) to get the Cardies out of the manure, concessions not made available to other club? Fro memory, no penalties applied for basically trading insolvent with endless spending and then don't you love it as a creditor when you get 5 or 10 cents in the dollar?

    The whole integrity of the WAFL comp is in complete tatters courtesy of the astonishingly inept WAFC .....East Perth's alignment handed them three flags on a plate (and I say that as a dyed in the wool Royals man), completely ridiculous, Subi got gifted the world with their Subiaco Oval El Dorado, Peel got the gift of Freo alignment and now West Perth now being lauded as a Lazarus type revival miracle......Nah, it's all B/S, the competition has all the credibility of free elections in Myanmar. Last month, I even found myself cheering for Claremont in the GF and you have no idea how hard that is for someone who doesn't really align with the Scotch College silver spooners.

    Gilgamesh, Chariotsonfire, VillageKid likes this post.

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  • VillageKidVillageKid    2,358 posts
    A deal was done thanks to the WAFC who loaned WP $500k or so and guaranteed the WP players and staff were paid when they went into administration and WP were supposed to pay their creditors a paltry 4c in the dollar.....I am not actually sure they even paid that in the end.....I guess it is nice having friends in high places and all.
    All they had to do was essentially replace the board and the likes of Neale Fong (a former WAFC Chairman) etc replaced them.
    No sanctions were placed on them like losing Premiership points, forced to on sell players etc to pay off these debts which happens in virtually every other sporting League in the world and to other WAFL clubs who have also been in financial turmoil over recent times was seemed to be biased towards WP.
    Now WP supporters are shouting from the roof top about how great they are, how they have $500k in the bank etc which should immediately paid back to creditors including the WAFC in full if they had any semblance of decency as a club!

    JayJay likes this post.

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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    That would mean breaking the Cardinal Rule VK  :D

    VillageKid likes this post.

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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    3,025 posts
    Betr (Michael Tripp) the new frontrunner for purchase of the WA TAB.

    Fixed odds service would improve markedly but I am unsure how that would affect  the Supertab pools.
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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Chariotsonfire said:

    JayJay it was pointed out to me that Chestnuts in harness racing are very much a thing of the past.


    Any explanation?
    Chariots, I have emailed you some data on chestnuts circa 1974 in WA that you may be interested in re the prevalence of chestnuts and roan/pie/skewbald horses that raced at GP in that season.

    Chariotsonfire likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Chariots raised the question about "disappearing" chestnuts. This will probably bore the young trendy deniers of history on here senseless but I couldn't really care less if it does, some extremely miserable types may recognise some names.

    In season 1973/74, there were different 718 horses that started in
    at least one race at Gloucester Park, so we are talking city type horses
    here, not all champs but not the worst either.

    Of
    the 718, there were 90 who were chestnuts and surprisingly 10 that were
    roan or pie/skewbald. The rest were bay, dark bay, brown or Black, some
    of the blacks may later have turned grey/white..

    The
    roan/piebald/skewbald horses were African Lad (Rn), Blue Rebel
    (Rn/grey), Colour Kid (Rn), Friendly Ruth (Rn), Goldulla (Skew),
    Gulladeen (Pie), Karamea Snow (Pie), Park Royale (Rn), Prince Daktari
    (Rn/grey) and Terra Nova (Rn).

    The chestnuts (in alphabetical order), some names may trigger a
    memory or two, whist others will be conspicuous by their lack of
    success:

    Albion Junior, Alladin, Apprentice,
    Arden Swift. Beau Solay, Brilliant Rogue, Bronze Ringer, Bronze Tiki,
    Bronze Whaler, Brook Oro, Butcher Byrd, Byrd Man, Caltrop, Cockahoop,
    Cool Play, Dainty Stretta, Dalfred, Dewburn, Dig We Must, Dollar Court.

    Fast
    Ease, Flagship, Frostland, Frostson, Gay Archie, Gay Garrison, Glamour
    City, Hanover Express, Hilloro, Holdown, In The Red, Jack Ease, Just
    Mick, Kiaora Lodge, Kiaora Scott, Kings First, Kistalou, Kononda, Lady
    Free, Lee Marie, Leyoro Lass, Local Gossip.

    Main
    Morris, Mitchell Victory, Molecap, Mount Dillon, Neloro, No Dill,
    Paleface Adios, Pam Robbie, Pangloss, Parking, Petromin, Picka Star,
    Poplar Hall,Preston Adios, Prince Capri, Prince Newton, Reco Bank, Red
    Axworthy, Red Canyon, Red Ideal, Redpath, Red Safari, Red Vicar, Regal
    Counsel, Revision, Ringatill, Royal Vance, Running Bear.

    Silver
    Erin, Silver Opal, Sound Heart, Sunny Morn, Susie Girl, Tanya Lee,
    Thors Hope, Threat, Torpedo Spring, Trafalgar Road, Travacin, Typhson,
    Van Aachen, Vermillion, Victory Oro, Vita Patris, Wentilla, Worooa Globe
    and Worthy Red.

    Of the 90, I think about 70 odd sprang to my mind, others straight through to the keeper.

    Chariotsonfire likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Don't know what happened to the formatting, an ageist thing probably. It was an Interdominion Year (Hondo Grattan), so Paleface and Mitchell Victory make the chestnuts list by guest appearance.
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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    edited October 2022
    One that went through to the keeper I suggest was Running Bear JayJay. 
    The anecdote I have with regards to him involves former Kalgoorlie hoop Max Dobrigh ...who was associated with the Fernie stable in the late sixties & early seventies & then was for a period the course ranger at the KBRC. Max rode a heap of good horses & was very successful for quite a while.
    He decided one off racing season to try his hand at training & driving pacers & thus he acquired Running Bear to do the job.
    Won a race first up ....fell the next start.... then promptly retired as a trainer reinsman.


    JayJay likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    edited October 2022
    Was looking up some past results, one of mine was racing at the time, the period from November 8th 1978 (a Wednesday) through to November 11th 1978. There were 7 meetings held, York (8 races and 85 horses raced) and Pinjarra  (8 races and 76 horses) on the Wednesday, November 10th Friday Night GP meeting (8 races and 86 horses), Saturday there were 4 meetings (seems odd I know but the Year Books are very accurate)....Bridgetown 6 races and 68 horses, Narrogin 6 races and 67 horses, Kellerberrin 6 races and 60 horses and Bunbury 8 races and 85 horses.

    So in total, 7 race meetings, 50 races, 527 horses. What would our horse population be these days? (A well kept secret).  The down sizing of the industry since 1978 is an indictment on those who have "managed" it's decline. The industry has been promised fix after fix after fix, along with numerous "this will reinvigorate" statements. None have worked. We battle to run 5 race meetings a week and field sizes are often well under maximum.

    Winners at the Bunbury Saturday Night November 11 meeting were Katoa (C.D Brown), Race Ruler (P.C Coulson), Timely Score (J.M Retzlaff), Sam Adios (D.Hunter), Sutos Prides (J.H Schrader), Flashing Ardri (R.W Buswell), San Simeon (L.S Austin and Warwick Kid (B.Geerson).......just an average night out at the Bunbry trots with a few handy sorts going through their paces at a provincial track. Something tells me the programming formula in those days sort of worked a hell of a lot better than the rubbish we are served up these days.
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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    3,322 posts
    4 meetings on the one Saturday night - that is incredible 

    Not living in the past - but great days back then 

    Some say im a provocative poster - but im not - i just post what instantly comes into my head 

    Now Ben Geerson - he probably had a champion somewhere along the line - but i think he specialised in 2 yr olds - but i thought he had plenty of ordinary ones - i wasnt in a hurry to back his horses - and was that guy Canadian - thats the other instant thought that comes into my head 

    There was a gallops trainer back in that era - which was similar - Reg Rayment - and i was giving the Pro Punt a real good/serious go - the Ascot races were on CH7 - Jimmy Chadwick calling them - and id tape them - then the following Frid was my form day - id sit watch those replays ( no people around - no distractions)- look at the weights/barriers - and thus had a decent strike rate. But i had one of his horses multiple times in the daily double ( had the 1st leg ) for a 9k result - it was favourite - in the box seat - very soft run - and it was as soft as butter - finished about 4th or 5th - beaten a length and a  half - if it was half decent it would have won by 4 lengths given the run it had 

    And i had about 3 of his horses do that to me- thus wasnt in a hurry to back his horses
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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Ben was a Dutchman and a master horseman, especially with youngsters, few better. And many horses got a fantastic grounding with him before returning to their owners favoured trainer. A long list but Burgundy, Den Helder, Mark Tabella, Dillons Return, Melton Neptune, Warwick Kid, Syrian Prince, Marquis Kinley, .....just some of his top liners. His horses always looked immaculate, I enjoyed his very dry, cutting sense of humour. Renowned for the big LTD Ford he towed his float with from McKinley Lodge in Byford, a complex that he had a lot to do with establishing. I believe he is still with us living overseas nowaday.

    Reg Rayment....excellent Geraldton based ?? trainer. Others will be far more familiar with him but I recall Mourilko as being a top horse and old mate down here used him as a stallion and bred a fine mare called Joparee which won a lot of races.

    Markovina likes this post.

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  • savethegamesavethegame    3,216 posts
    Funny man to obs at Yearling Sales Burnhard (B.G-) Done everything bar bite them between the ears when he inspected them ------ When i say go i mean go brillant judge with his budget at the sales

    Reg Rayment sure he won W.A Derby with Rare Flyer. trained outa Ascot. for a while.

    Markovina likes this post.

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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    edited October 2022
    My old mate Rod Starkie used to do the dental work on Bens horses ...Rod loved repeating in Bens big Dutch drawl ...".Rodddeney .....anyone who comes into my stables ....I will teach them the ABC's of trotting".

    JayJay, Markovina likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Ben could swear for both the Netherlands and Australia. Was buying a colt off him one day at his stables.

    "I tell you vot Tim, buy him for 3 touzand, you can't go focken wrong viz him, you will haf your focken money back before you notice it's mizzing from you account, heez a little focken gentleman, I know coz I broke da fokker in. Menges Hanover, dey are all like me, focken gentlemen. Now, come up za house for a coffee while ya write the focken cheque".

    He was a man of his word was Ben, horse was a gentleman, just a slow gentleman. He won 4 races and ran a lot of places....got my money back. 

    curmudgeon, cisco, Markovina likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Just had a look at 1984 as a sample year for Ben...winning youngsters that year Remit Adios, Yankee Time Boy, Fellow Kinley, Rex Kinley, Golden Rand, Wendy Lobell , Two Crowns, Loyal Bachelor (3 wins in a row) etc.....very good trainer of young horses, few peers.
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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    The Lewis horse that broke its maiden tonight Rodasi is a full brother to two 1.50 horses, Rishi and Our Corelli.
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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Whoops...forgot Sharach...who Ben won a lot of races with, I think between the Cushings and then his remarkable stint winning a Pacing Cup with the Taylors?
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  • ChariotsonfireChariotsonfire    3,025 posts
    Sharach was actually the first horse to defeat San Simeon in a trial at GP driven by Danny Voak and he did a lap of honour after the trial.

    JayJay likes this post.

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  • meatpiemeatpie    602 posts
    savethegame said:

    Funny man to obs at Yearling Sales Burnhard (B.G-) Done everything bar bite them between the ears when he inspected them ------ When i say go i mean go brillant judge with his budget at the sales


    Reg Rayment sure he won W.A Derby with Rare Flyer. trained outa Ascot. for a while.
    Reg Rayment originally from Geraldton, trained Rare Sovereign to win Karrakatta Plate from Geraldton, think he won WA guineas too but not sure.

    Trained many city winners, Rare Flyer, Kiwi Bride, Rare Sovereign, Rare West, Mourilko, Wealthy Lover, Priority Road, probably forgotten quite a few.

    Markovina likes this post.

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    3,322 posts
    Victoria have certainly got an impressive breeding industry ( a great core  fundamental to have a succesfull ongoing industry ) easily the best in Aust

    Today Mryborough - 3 heats of Vic Trotters Derby ( 75k final ) - 9 to 10 runners in each heat

    Thus 28 runners - and 26 are Aust bred - be interesting what their average price was at the yearling sales 
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  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    242 posts
    Tab sale looks to of fallen through
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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    edited November 2022
    63 y/o Peter Schrader climbing back into the bike in the last at GP on Boston Rob for Brett Smith.
    Good luck Pete....be nice to add to those 177 career wins & 1 mill plus prizemoney on this occasion..

    VillageKid likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Short changed by those stats on HRA....662 wins over 350 in Perth and considerably more than a million plus in prizemoney. Those stats are "post computer" figures and for anyone of a "mature" age are essentially not much value.

    curmudgeon, VillageKid likes this post.

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  • getthechangegetthechange    339 posts
    JayJay said:

    Short changed by those stats on HRA....662 wins over 350 in Perth and considerably more than a million plus in prizemoney. Those stats are "post computer" figures and for anyone of a "mature" age are essentially not much value.


    thought the hra stats looked suspicious. But much higher than I thought - thanks jay jay
    Pete has been driving trackwork for a few weeks and still looks good in the cart and pretty fit - must still have some followers with Boston rob opening at $51 last night

    curmudgeon, VillageKid likes this post.

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  • Ivorytrunkey86Ivorytrunkey86    242 posts
    I’m great mates with Pete’s son Jamie who mentioned Pete still pays for his license every year,best of luck to him.

    VillageKid likes this post.

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  • JayJayJayJay    8,623 posts
    Not related to this but I was looking up something in the 1977/78 year book and the name Go To It jumped off the page. I remember Colin Brown drove his first ever winner on Go To It at York in 1976 and on September 23 1977, Go To It wins at GP for Peter Schrader. Might have been his first metro success? The years seem about right.

    VillageKid likes this post.

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  • VillageKidVillageKid    2,358 posts
    JayJay said:

    Short changed by those stats on HRA....662 wins over 350 in Perth and considerably more than a million plus in prizemoney. Those stats are "post computer" figures and for anyone of a "mature" age are essentially not much value.

    It is a crying shame that the HRA website has virtually no information on WA Trots races and records pre 1990.
    I am not sure why this is the case but they have missed the halcyon days of the sport here in WA unfortunately! 

    curmudgeon likes this post.

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  • MarkovinaMarkovina    3,322 posts
    Yes Peter Schrader - and i either rate them - or i dont - which upsets some people 

    However i rated him - he was a very talented driver - he had blonde hair as a young bloke didnt he 

    Things stick in my memory - i can still picture them - and i can remember one night at Notham - when PS was just starting out - and of course i was right on the fence so i never missed anything - and it was a standing start - and they use to start in the home straight - and a horse was playing up - so Jimmy came out onto the track - things were nice and relaxed back then - so you could do common sense things like that - and he crouched over the back of his son - not to give him instructions i dont think - but more to settle his nerves etc- because he wouldnt have many drives to that point 

    Now i was going to post this on the football forum - but ive just been for my long walk - so i am hot and tired - thus im posting it here

    With the Cats winning the GF - but more to the point with football being attractice/pleasurable to watch again - its got me interested in the sport again - so 2-3  nights their - ive tried and watched old vision of VFL and WAFL - mainly finals - and their is a bit out their 

    Watched a bit of 69 and 71 WAFL Gfs - the ones West Perth won - and 71 was a famous one - Farmers las game - and they were massive underdogs against East Perth 

    And seeing this forum is a Swans District stronghold - there is 4-5 minutes vision of the 61GF - SD beating E/P -but its not great vision - alot of scrubby kicks etc 

    And final bit of goss on the footy - the other night i watched a replay of Royce Hart  on OpenMike - and Hart as a 19 ear old playing for Vic against WA at the MCG - and Mike said to him you kicked 7 goals  - and Royce said -yeah - and down the other end Big Bob Johson kicked 6 or 7 as well - so 1967 - Big Bob would have been a fair age - so that is a pretty damm good effort - kicking 6-7 against the might of the Vics




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  • curmudgeoncurmudgeon    2,417 posts
    Interesting development

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-07/wa-tab-sale-scrapped/101626520?fbclid=IwAR3Lt0ZBGkUKs00HuJlwJwELgkjA5HDrYsojcrT716YReknCaGUKB_9wBok
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