Essendon call in ASADA

runyon · August 2015

Carlosa said:

Legless said:
They had the opportunity a long long long time ago to tell the truth in the public forum - would have gone along way to ending speculation.

They elected not to.

I doubt that any of them thought that their injection regime would remain secret forever.

But then again, they allowed themselves to be used as pin cushions :-?
The players have never spoken in a public forum? You don't recall what happened when Jobe Watson came out on TV and told all and sundry what happened? He was happy to tell everyone he was injected with AOD, and that it was his belief it was legal. How'd that go for him and the players? You seem ot have forgotten that? All the ignorant twats that have been crapping on for the last 2.5 years just kept on going, in fact they got louder and louder and more personal...it did not end any speculation, as you have suggested it would have, because a) the majority of people actually want to believe it was terrible and that they cheated, and b) the AFL sat idly by and let everyone believe that AOD was illegal when they knew full well it wasn't. The AFL loved it, it suited the 'this was 100% an out of control injection regime and Essendon acted alone' agenda that the likes of your good self and BL have dined out on for several years now.

That is why the players are now silent!

And stop with this pin cushion nonsense would you? Seriously, the most injections any player received was 23. Yes, 23! Max Rooke received over 70 injections in a 3 week period, Coughlan 100's, Ted Richards took over a dozen in a week leading into a grand final, and you reckon 23 over 8 plus months months is being a 'pin cushion'. I know you don't want to believe it, but this whole thing just is not as big as you want it to be, and that is slowly but surely coming out. Leave the emotive language at the door mate, that was all disproven months ago, and get up to speed with the latest evidence.

The players can count themselves lucky it was stopped when it was though. There were to be 26000 injections administered to the group if the program had have continued as planned.

Legless · August 2015

Haven't for a while and don't intend to make any comment about the legality or otherwise of what was injected..

"this was 100% an out of control injection regime" - I don't think there is any doubt.

The latest twist to this saga is about the anguish the players are suffering because of the leaks and the length of time this is taking to come to an end.

If on day one they had said what they did behind closed doors publicly then IMHO they would be seen as the victims and things would be a lot different for them.

You choose to believe that they kept hush to avoid ridicule, I believe they got together , said we will stick together as one, keep our mouths shut, no-one will ever know what happened and we will get through this unscathed,

This hasn't happened, and in time it will be revealed as to who is to blame

Carlosa · August 2015

I actually do agree with your thoughts there too Legless, I have little doubt they all got together at a point in time and decided that would be the approach, to stay silent as one. I just don't blame them for doing so - it didn't matter what they said, or how they acted, the media were hell bent on twisting everything.

Re your first line, fair call, play on...I was the same on this whole episode on this forum anyway, but you know, sometimes we just wake up on the wrong side of the bed...

AndrewCarter · August 2015

Agree legless if the players, who still do have my sympathy for being used as guineas pigs, had not employed mass selective naivety in regard to the situation and come forward publicly when this all first blew up they would have had the sympathy and support of most supporters.
They would have then been able to tell their shocking and distressing personal stories of exactly what occurred and how most have no idea of what they were actually treated with but none of the club's hierarchy of course wanted that to be exposed.

bookielover · August 2015

Carlosa, read Jake Nialls report in the Age on August 6 which is available on the net.

WADA claimed that they found abnormally high levels of Thymosin Beta 4 in the frozen urine samples of two Essendon players.

Now, while the findings will be strongly debated by the parties, if true, the only way the drug could have entered the Essendon players system, is through injections.

By the way Carlosa, if you had bothered to read the article posted by FM quoting Brendan Goddard, the same report appears there.

It appears up to this point in time, the players as far as we know, are not displaying any signs of physical impairment. And that is a good thing. Only the future will tell if this changes in anyway.

Now, I have an apology to make.

Although I read Goddards comments, I didn't absorb them correctly, and like you Fast Money, have in my case at least, inadvertently assumed that his comments mean that the players are suffering from psychological damage.

Read the article again FM.

NOWHERE in that article does Goddard say that the players are suffering from any psychological damage whatsoever.

Yes, they are "fed up" and "sick" of the constant speculation, any normal human being would be, but that's a long way from saying that they are suffering psychological damage.

What Goddard is really upset about, is that the truth keeps coming out. He's crook on the "constant leaks" and that the "guys are just sick of it".

No mention of psychological damage, no mention that there are players who have been in therapy because of the constant speculation and continued revelations, nothing.

He then goes on to say, "they'll want to get up and play footy".

If you are as psychologically impaired as you have interpreted Goddards words to mean because it suits your agenda FM, then there is no way that any player could possibly get up and play footy.

Ask Mitch Clark formerly of Melbourne and now Geelong just how being Psychologically damaged can affect your ability to play.

Now, if it was in fact the case that my son who plays for the Essendon Football Club was so psychologically damaged that he could not function, as a loving and responsible parent observing my son deteriorate into a mental mess, I would firstly ensure that he had the best possible care, and secondly sue the club for their lack of care to him and make them pay for turning my son into a mental wreck.

FM, how about next time, you actually make at least some attempt to quote what someone says rather than distort their words in order to suit your agenda.

Oh, and Carlosa, I reckon that any reasonable clear thinking person would agree that if you receive 23 injections, you are a pin cushion.

The other examples that you have quoted, just make those people more of a pin cushion than the Essendon players were.

Runyon's revelation that the players were to have received another 26,000 injections, which as I type this, you have yet to refute, makes the mind boggle with total disbelief that the Club would have allowed such an unconscionable injecting regime to have continued.

Carlosa · August 2015

I know that report BL, I have read it all. In fact I know the raw data that the report was based on. But where does it say what you said: "Testing by WADA has revealed that two of the 34 players displayed evidence of being injected with Thymosin beta 4"'? Just answer my question, where does it say that there is evidence of injecting TB4? I'm not asking this to be smart, I'm asking as if that is out there somewhere, and it is real, then it is a case closed, the players have doped, ban them. And I would fully support that.

What I have read is - 2 of the 34 players, upon WADA retesting stored urine samples, have shown abnormal TB4 numbers. That is all it says in the WADA submission. There is no basis as to what normal levels of TB4 are, nor any data around the range at which this elevation, or abnormal level, is acceptable. TB4 levels differ greatly in human to human and can fluctuate massively through the course of a day. So we need to wait and see what WADA support this statement with.

Re the number of injections; my 13 month old baby has had 20 injections in her life already. I've just given her a new nickname, 'lil pinny', is what I'll call her.

That 26,000 number is a fabrication. I will refute that till the cows come home. I just love it when people are happy to accept these statements yet will, in the next breath, claim something a long the lines of - there were no records, the club had no records, they had no idea what they took, it could be anything. The two statements/ideas are conflicting, you can't have a known amount of injections in a planned program, but not know what they are.

Re the players not showing physical impairment, for what it is worth, I can add a little more solidity to this statement and can confirm all medical testing/reports on all players at Essendon in 2011/12 have come back fine to this day. There are no trends developing amongst the group off the norm, in their blood testing, and nothing at all, medically, to provide any need for alarm. That comes from a Mother who is in constant touch with the doctors (and lawyers).

Anyway, I'm off home after a long stint at work....I'm getting married too next week so I hope I am not in here debating this BS any more over the next few weeks...

runyon · August 2015

BL, the 26000 figure is from the AFL "Notice of Charge" issued against Essendon in August 2013.

Legless · August 2015

Andrew Carter said:
Agree legless if the players, who still do have my sympathy for being used as guineas pigs, had not employed mass selective naivety in regard to the situation and come forward publicly when this all first blew up they would have had the sympathy and support of most supporters.
They would have then been able to tell their shocking and distressing personal stories of exactly what occurred and how most have no idea of what they were actually treated with but none of the club's hierarchy of course wanted that to be exposed.

Will be interesting to see what happened when it "leaks" out.

- did they all get together at a BBQ one Sunday and decide amongst themselves
- was it legal advice, individually or collectively as a group
- was it Hirdy
- the players assoc
- the club
- a combination of all
- did they all just stay hush as individuals without any coercion

Whatever the reason, they did a dam good job of it - pity for HB and Calossa they are not doing as good a job as a team on the field ;)

Carlosa · August 2015

Kennett's thoughts (from herald sun):

The players have been subjected to carefully placed leaks to the media on a regular basis.

Now this paper published on Monday not a piece of information but a truck load of evidence that was purportedly given by the players to AFL investigators, no doubt under the condition of confidentiality.

Violent criminals have been treated with more respect than the Essendon players. Murderers have had their crimes adjudicated more speedily than these sportsmen.

Lives have been harmed mentally and physically; families penalised. Enough is enough.

Regardless of what the players were given, regardless of their own culpability, they are the ones who have suffered publicly more than any others. These young men as late as Monday’s exposé in this paper have been hung out to dry because of the incompetent, selfish and at times simple blundering of those in positions of authority.

The time has come to end the circus! The case against the players must be dropped.

All officials involved in the handling of this saga at the AFL, Essendon and ASADA should resign or be stood down. They have failed. Comprehensively!

Carlosa · August 2015

runyon said:
BL, the 26000 figure is from the AFL "Notice of Charge" issued against Essendon in August 2013.

Which has since been shown to be grossly incorrect, fabricated, tampered with etc.

Unfortunately though, as is evidenced here, the damage is done and the horse has bolted!

runyon · August 2015

Carlosa, I actually tried to find if Essendon refuted that figure anywhere before I posted but couldn't see anything. You would imagine if it was a complete fabrication the Bombers would be all over it as it does not paint them in a great light regardless whether the substances injected were illegal or not.
Is it just your feeling it's a fabrication or has it been disputed by Essendon. I'm honestly interested to know.

Carlosa · August 2015

Through the discovered documents from the federal court case there were emails from AFL officials to ASADA telling them to inflate the number, to include regular vitamin suplements, as am example, as part of the planned injection program.

I'm currently sitting on the can doing a shit at the airport, but i will find them amd quote them in here in the near future...

runyon · August 2015

Take your time. :D

bookielover · August 2015

I answered your point in my previous post, Carlosa.

Firstly, nowhere did I state that I was quoting verbatim from any statement issued by WADA.

While you put my sentence in quotation marks quoting what I have written, I did not use quotation marks in any part of that statement that you have quoted.

As I stated in my previous post, and you agree with me, there will be debate about the Thymosin beta 4 that WADA claim to have found in the urine samples of the players.

If it is proven that there was Thymosine Beta 4 in their urine, then the only logical way that it could have got there was through an injection of the drug.

So what if WADA don't actually specify that that was the manner in which the players allegedly received the banned drug.

Not one report that has been revealed thus far, has stated that the players received any of the drugs they received in any way other than by injection.

So if we take WADA'S discovery at face value, can you, Carlosa, please provide evidence that the drug could have been given to the players in a way other than by injection.

Although I agree with Kennet that the handling of this case has been abysmal, I do not agree that all charges against the players "must be dropped'.

Had the players been found guilty, they would have had the right to appeal.

WADA have the right to appeal the decision handed down by the Tribunal. Dank, much as I despise him, has the right to appeal against his sentence.

The second that you deny peoples rights just because you are sick and tired of an ongoing saga, is the second that the very basis upon which our democracy was founded is destroyed.

The only thing that I can say about the 26,000 injections, is that Runyon has provided the name of the document from whence he obtained his information.

Carlosa, you say that it's been shown to be "grossly incorrect, fabricated, tampered with etc." yet have not produced the evidence to substantiate your claim.

Anyway, Carlosa, you obviously haven't learned from those of us who gave up our freedom, in my case 42 years ago, in order to enter into the institution of marriage.

My only advice to you is to read the fine print on the contract.

And if you want to share a long and happy life with your bride, then when she asks you "what's on TV tonight," don't answer "dust".

I would give you many more tips for a successful marriage, but why spoil the surprise.

Good luck to you both, and I hope your marriage is blessed with much love, happiness, longevity and good health.

:x

Carlosa · August 2015

BL...TB4 occurs naturally in humans....so it is about determining if they were elevated to such a level that ir could only have been caused by the peptide, or was it from, for eg, increased natural production due to injury. Given it is submitted as an elevated reading as opposed to a positive reading, it remains quite the dilemma...

Appreciate the marriage wishes, cheers

Carlosa · August 2015

BL...TB4 occurs naturally in humans....so it is about determining if they were elevated to such a level that ir could only have been caused by the peptide, or was it from, for eg, increased natural production due to injury. Given it is submitted as an elevated reading as opposed to a positive reading, it remains quite the dilemma...

Appreciate the marriage wishes, cheers

Fastmoney · August 2015

Kennett obviously understands that individuals have been harmed mentally and the further pursuit of the case will cause more harm.

He would have a fair idea about mental end psychological problems.

bookielover · August 2015

There are many different levels of Mental impairment.

Daily pressures such as putting food on the table, family issues, job security and so on can all lead people to great despair and depression.

In many instances, Beyond Blue of whom Kennett is the President, deal with such cases every day of the week.

Unfortunately, some people are so depressed that they are moved to suicide.

I have no doubt that the Essendon players have been severely effected by what has taken place. It has been a huge blow to their collective reputations and egos.

They missed out on playing in finals.

Their reputations are for the most part, probably tarnished forever.

And they have no idea what exactly is going to happen to them as a result of WADA'S appeal.

However, they are STILL playing football every week, and it is only physical injury which prevents that happening.

There is no evidence whatsoever that any player involved in the scandal is under psychiatric help.

Of course they are upset with the leaks, and the innuendo, and the possibility that they may eventually be suspended or fined as a result of WADA'S appeal.

But, unlike Mitch Clark who suffers from severe depression, they are still playing football every week.

The hypocrisy on Kennetts part , your part, and most of all Goddards and the Essendon players part is mind blowing.

The players may not like the fact that WADA is appealing, but I reckon that they would have taken exactly the same course and would have appealed if they had been found guilty, thus prolonging the case and their so called agony.

So please spare me the phony concern Fast Money, and the pious posturing by Kennett and you.

SPUDLEY · August 2015

Essendon Football Club need to act now to cleanse this mess asap for the players sanity and future well being the club needs to sack Hird and Little immediately after today's loss so as to try and move on from this nightmare that they created.

BlacksAFake · August 2015

Nuh keep him,luv watching his miserable cruit in the coaches box every week :>

TheSwooper · August 2015

Had a read of this this morning out of in interest.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/book-extract-essendon-great-dustin-fletcher-gives-insiders-account-into-bombers-supplements-saga/story-fnp04d70-1227493303654?utm_source=HeraldSun&utm_medium=Twitter&utm_campaign=EditorialSF&utm_content=SocialFlow

Legless · November 2015

"Hal Hunter is contemplating suing the club and the AFL for exposing him to risks to his health and wellbeing in undertaking the supplements program," Justice Mukhtar said.

https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/30202918/ex-dons-player-gets-access-to-documents/

bookielover · December 2015

I reckon we are all heartily sick of this issue, however, word around town from a couple of lawyers whose advice as to certain rights has been sought and I'll leave it at that, is that this saga has got a long way to go and the fat lady is still gargling.

I don't envy whomever takes over from Paul Little.

TheDiva · December 2015

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-14/essendon-football-club-chairman-paul-little-resigns/7027750

Carlosa · December 2015

Little announced he would be stepping down at the AGM a while back. He announced his support for Lindsay Tanner then, to take over, and that is the way it has turned out.

G-Mac · January 2016

*grabs popcorn, gets comfortable*

This should be an entertaining thread today.

DarkTarget · January 2016

Just an absolutely staggering decision.

Going forward, player gets given medication by a CLUB DOCTOR, what is he supposed to do? Who does he need to go to find out if he can legally take it?

BlacksAFake · January 2016

=))

RIO · January 2016

All i will say - cos i was tired of this conversation 12 months ago - is YOU FARKING BEWDY.

And i cant see why they are allowed to replace those contracted players with others...If they cant fill a team, then they forfeit.The reason for this decision is to penalize the players and the club.
:D :-h /:)

DarkTarget · January 2016

I haven't read the thread so dont know everyones thoughts, but how can they possibly suspend the players for doing no more than they were told by the clubs medical staff?

G'day Punter!

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