Nikolic involved in Race Probe .......Oops

DamienWyer · May 2015

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/horseracing/jockey-danny-nikolic-of-interest-in-echuca-race-probe-20150504-ggu0ls.html

Racing doesn't need this.

BobbyDavis · May 2015

No stranger to the stewards room that character

SHOVHOG · May 2015

That stable is a huge betting stable.

goose · May 2015

Shovhog can you clarify for me when they say $260000 was wagered on Betfair I think what has actually happened is $130000 was bet and layed so it gets counted twice have made this mistake myself when looking at the betfair total matched amount.

Still is a huge amount regardless for an Echuca race.

SLIPPERGOLDEN · May 2015

Betting on horses to lose. Yes that was always a great idea. It is easier to lose a race than win one. A blight on racing that was easy to predict from day one.

SHOVHOG · May 2015

goose said:
Shovhog can you clarify for me when they say $260000 was wagered on Betfair I think what has actually happened is $130000 was bet and layed so it gets counted twice have made this mistake myself when looking at the betfair total matched amount.
Still is a huge amount regardless for an Echuca race.

I think you will find $260,000 was matched on the race. Don't quote me on that.

TheDiva · May 2015

I think shovhog is right, $260k matched.

bookielover · May 2015

I was going to put up a thread about this investigation.

What was of great interest to me is the following quote from Chief Victorian Steward terry Bailey.

"The investigation pretty much went into swing straight after the race"

"OUR CONTROL ROOM BACK AT HEADQUARTERS (FLEMINGTON), NOTIFIED THE STEWARDS AT ECHUCA, ABOUT THE FAIRLY LARGE MATCHING OF BETS AGAINST BARON ARCHER TO LOSE AND THE INQUIRY STARTED ON THE DAY IN QUESTION".

I have deliberately italicized that part of the quote, because the question must be asked by those who bet on Perth racing and see horses laid on Betfair at odds way over those available in the Perth betting ring, why we NEVER hear about an inquiry by Perth Stewards.

Do Perth Stewards have a control room at their headquarters that enables them to monitor betting anomalies that appear on Betfair? If they do, why does it appear to punters, that the Stewards are not doing their job and inquiring into such anomalies, and publishing the results of those inquiries?

And if they do not have the same facility that the Victorian stewards have, why not?

Many of you, mainly lead by Mailman, have expressed the view that it is almost impossible to bet with any confidence on Perth racing, because the betting ring tells you one thing, while Betfair says another.

Some might say, why not use that edge to our advantage. If a horse is $5.00 into $4.40 in the ring, but "they" are prepared to lay the horse at $5.50 on the Fair, why not put a line through that particular horse and either join in the rort, or bet around it.

My reason is purely and simply, that I want to be a participant as far as possible in a fair unblemished level playing field.

That doesn't mean that if I have a contact or contacts in a stable who tell me that they think that Phar Lap is a certainty, I won't take advantage of that information. Of course I will. But what I always find, is that there are no secrets today about the thoughts of any stable, and the horse that I have been tipped as a certainty will ALWAYS shorten in the ring because others, just like me, have received the tip.

Conversely, when I am told that a horse is running to get it fitter for a race in two weeks, and am told that it could win, but it's unlikely to do so, then I can assure you, that that horse will drift in the betting ring. Oh, and sometimes, those horses actually defy the opinion of the stable and win, because the horse is trying, but the stable opinion was that it was not fit enough.

What upsets me, is doing the form on a race, in Perth, thinking a horse has a top chance, seeing it shorten in the ring, backing it thinking that "they" agree with my opinion of the horses chances, only to see the tripe being laid out of it on Betfair.

It is not beyond the realms of possibility, that a punter or punters would be prepared to put 10 thousand on a horse in the ring at Belmont, in order to shorten the price of that horse, in order for them to then get $25,000 out of it on Betfair. They make a $15,000 profit, and can be pretty sure that, unlike in Victoria, there will be no Stewards inquiry whatsoever!

As Fastmoney alerted us, turnover on WA racing continues to plummet every year.

I can assure the powers that be at Perth Racing, that this will continue until such time as the Stewards come out and PUBLICLY announce that they have appointed two of their co-workers, to monitor every single horse that has either been backed in the ring, or whose price in the ring has remained steady throughout the betting, however, the horse is being heavily laid on Betfair.

They should further announce that should such an event occur, they will conduct a full public inquiry, and expose those that are doing the heavy laying of these horses, and ensure that if any illegality or manipulation is confirmed, charges will be laid.

Until such time as Stewards in Perth start taking this seriously, then the confidence that those at Perth Racing would like the punting public to have in their racing product will continue to be as non-existent as it is today.

thefalcon · May 2015

it will be interesting to see the outcome of this investigation.
my bet? it will slip into oblivion.

Fastmoney · May 2015

Not sure 1 investigation, supposedly based on betting irregularities, makes Victorian stewards any more vigilant than any other state.

Might have more to do with the Nikolic factor.

Investigations based on betting irregularities are a rarity Australia wide (in all codes).

TheDiva · May 2015

Id say the two accounts that heavily laid the horse, were the trigger for the investigation.

those two accounts must be linked to people they are interested in.

I doubt its slipping away because Bailey said in the article they are close to charges did he not?

thefalcon · May 2015

i'll be in melb. tomorrow for a few days so will watch their press with interest.

bookielover · May 2015

Diva,

The monitoring of the race picked up the heavy laying of the horse and the Echuca Stewards were alerted about this so that the inquiry started at the track on the day of the race.

The Stewards then requested the names of those who had heavily laid the horse on Betfair, which obviously led to the Aha, those two, moment.

Falcon,

Bailey said "in all likelihood the investigation is heading towards charges being laid and we can give you more information on that when that happens"

He then said, "we're at the pointy end of this and I would say THE NEXT SEVEN DAYS whatever falls out of it will fall out".

So I hope that you are wrong on this, and that these people will finally be exposed.

Whatever one may think about this investigation and Victorian Stewards, we have learnt two things.

According to Bailey,Victorian Stewards are monitoring Betfair on every race run in the State.

And secondly, this inquiry is at least one more than the Stewards in Perth have ever had.

twiggy · May 2015

Bookielover

I'm all for the investigation and it's a positive step...but is it disconcerting to you that the only investigation that we have heard anything about is one that allegedly involves "D Nikolic". There is no love lost between the pair!

As a punter I would take much greater comfort if the Vic stewards who are actively 'monitoring every race' on betfair, released statements pertaining to the alarming drifts on several fancied C Williams ridden runners and many C Waller horses over the last few months. I'm not suggesting anything untoward is happening but it is worrying to see how unloved some of these horses are late in betting. How fantastic would it be for the industry/ punter if every Mon/Tues they released a report detailing they have looked into the drifts, the accounts being used etc and there is nothing that warrants further investigation or we are conducting further inquiries...

It would keep everyone on their toes and give punters confidence in the product. If punters have confidence in the product they will bet. Betting creates liquidity which in turn drives revenue.

thefalcon · May 2015

I think there are bigger fish to fry with mr. nicolic.

bookielover · May 2015

Hi Twiggy,

I 100% agree with everything you say in your post, and yes it absolutely shiiiiites me that it has taken this long for us to see the Stewards doing what we punters pay them to do!!

It has been a bugbear of mine for a long time now, that the Stewards in all States appear to be blind to that which we can all see happening on Betfair every day. You have provided some examples of questions that must be asked.

The point I was making in my post is, that if Bailey is telling the truth, at least the Stewards have revealed that they are watching Betfair and heavily laid horses. As I said, that's if Terry is telling us the truth.

Matt Stewart and Leo Schlink who have written the article in today's Herald Sun played it very smart.

They start off by writing "Danny Nikolic said last night "he had no interest" in claims he was involved in betting activity that sparked the Baron Archer probe...."

By writing it that way,they have, to all intents and purposes, officially linked Nikolic to the betting scandal, and done so without having to make an actual statement that he WAS involved, which would have necessitated the use of the words "alleged to have been involved."

It is obvious that they must have been leaked Nikolics alleged involvement by someone very close to the issue. I know that Nikolic and Bailey hate each other. You do put it a lot nicer than me Twiggy.

The punting public have a right to know who is heavily laying horses on Betfair, that have apparently been backed on track.

Stephen Fletcher one of, if not the biggest punter in Sydney, was alleged to have heavily laid a horse ridden by Bobby El'issa in Queensland. Bobby copped a stretch, Fletcher got off even when evidence was provided that the two spoke to each other regularly.

Frankly, like you, Twiggy, I'm sick of it. I have curtailed my punting to a small interest each Saturday. And I spend most of my time just watching the races, listening to the cr@p emanating from Sky so I can have a good laugh, and watching for horses that are being heavily laid on the Fair, and how they perform.

There is another aspect to this as well, that requires investigation.

Every time a horse in a race is laid heavily, you will find that punters are prepared to take huge unders on Betfair, compared to what is available on track, about another horse in the same race. Yet, we don't get any investigations about that either.

None of the Stewards in any State are doing their jobs to the extent that they should be. I just believe that Perth is the worst offender, closely followed by Brisbane. One of their main Stewards Wade Birch, has only come back to the job, apparently on the proviso that he has 3 days on and 4 days off!

In Victoria, we should have Sal Perna our Racing Corruption Cop, watching the Fair like a hawk.

This is a full time job, and until such time as all racing administrators recognize the fact that activity on Betfair must be monitored all over Australia at every race meeting, and any anomalies must be fully investigated, punters like myself will continue to lack the confidence necessary to bet on any meeting anywhere in this Country.

thefalcon · May 2015

don't laugh......but could authorities ban betfair or curtail their activities to purely win/place bets?

Fastmoney · May 2015

Betfair counter integrity issues by having all their betting information available to racing stewards.

The problem with racing stewards and betting analyst/supervisors is that they aren`t familiar enough (smart enough) with modern betting techniques and are unable to identify the difference between normal betting activity and an obvious rort.

There are plenty of irregularities (at every meeting Australia wide) that go unnoticed by stewards that should have some sort of questions asked.

I bet and lay successfully on thoroughbred racing Australia wide and internationally, based on Betfair and Citibet markets, without doing any form whatsoever.

Betfair is a tool that racing that can use to improve integrity, however the powers that be are incapable or unwilling to use it that way and the rorts and perception of corruption continue.

Ridersonthestorm33 · May 2015

Slip and Falcon both you guys have followed racing long enough to know that there was a bit of dodgy practices going on along time before Betfair came .Blaming Betfair for any type of skullduggery is barking up the wrong tree! No need to ban or restrict Betfair use it as a tool as stated above.

thefalcon · May 2015

yes but it was "fun dodgy"...bit of cloak and dagger, whispers behind form guides etc.
nothing really sinister, just the game to beat the bookies.
today its on an entirely new level..millions is involved, the "fun" has gone...now murder and bashings take over from "jeez you're a shady bastard...but good on ya".

Ridersonthestorm33 · May 2015

Lol true!

Fastmoney · May 2015

the falcon said:
yes but it was "fun dodgy"...bit of cloak and dagger, whispers behind form guides etc.
nothing really sinister, just the game to beat the bookies.

Fun if you were part of the rort.

Bookmaking used to be a license to print money (millions involved for them), totally different scenario now that the everyday punter has access to all the information.

Bill Waterhouse used to proclaim he never layed off, easy to make that call when no one was scrutinizing payments to jockeys and trainers.

Spuiking the gambling exploits of the good old days as nothing "really sinister" downplays how bad things really were.

Everyone thought it was OK because the regular punter had no idea what was going on.

RIO · May 2015

the falcon said:
yes but it was "fun dodgy"...bit of cloak and dagger, whispers behind form guides etc.
nothing really sinister, just the game to beat the bookies.
today its on an entirely new level..millions is involved, the "fun" has gone...now murder and bashings take over from "jeez you're a shady bastard...but good on ya".

and if the stipes got a whisper of what went down they'd put the fear of death into you and say they'd be watching you....and they would.
i wonder how many trainers would be concerned about hearing that today????

Fastmoney · May 2015

Why do people think bookies all used to drive Mercs and you had to wait in line to get a bookies license and now you can get a license tomorrow?

Pretty easy to work out what used to go on.

Does everyone think bookies got dumb overnight?

Ridersonthestorm33 · May 2015

Lets face it the on course bookies are dwindling away.That old great era is over. Betfair is here to stay...Lets govern it properly. The resources must be there to make that possible. Tote , Corporate Bookmakers, Betfair should all be thriving. On course bookmakers should be encouraged whilst they are still there. There is something about being on track with no bookmakers that makes it a bit of a ghost town . But in saying that see all points of view above. Interesting discussion. I think Betfair has been a great innovation simply because it's been good for the punter, who too often has been neglected.

sonny · May 2015

I agree with Riders. Betfair and Corps are here to stay and are a plus if they are governed correctly. Register them and bring them to the races .

bookielover · May 2015

I speak from personal experience and knowledge, Fastmoney, that after the turnover tax was introduced in 1957, bookmaking was good, but never a "license to print money"

The 2.25% T/O Tax cost my old man from 1957 when he became a bookie, until 1990 when he retired a conservative $6 million.

My father got in to the City tracks immediately on his application being approved, which was unheard of, because 20 bookies gave it away in 57 saying that the T/O tax would be the death of bookies.

One of them was a huge bookmaker called Ray Williams. He was the bookie who took on the so called "lady in black" who had won a fortune backing Bernborough. She had at least 20 thousand pounds on with Ray in the 1946 Caulfield Cup at 7/4. Athol Mulley was accused of pulling the horse up.

I know this to be true, because Rays brother Keith who was his penciller became my Dads penciller for the next 33 years. Ray retired at a relatively young age of 55 a multi-millionaire from bookmaking in the true golden era from 1925 till 1957.

The facts which are sad but true, are that most of the bookies of the 3,300 that were working in Victoria from 1957 either went broke, or turned it up because they were going broke. I lost count of the number of times that we passed the hat around at the Victorian Club in order that a bookie who had passed away, could have a decent funeral.

The Mercs had been sold, and in at least 6 cases that I know of about 6 rails bookmakers who would bet you to win 30 and 40 thousand without blinking, all 6 lost their homes. And they are just the ones I know about.

If we didn't have a business to support us, I have no doubt that we would have gone the same way.

Bill W, had, as you point out, a huge edge, and there are a lot of stories that could be told, but can't be at this time. He cannot be compared to any other bookmaker who worked over the last 60 years.

The fact is, that my old man, and every other bookie would, over twelve months, beat the punters.

My father never complained about license fees or paying clerks. They were, as he said, the cost of doing business, that every business in Australia faced.

But no other business in Australia, had to pay the iniquitous T/O tax.

So my father could win $200,000 after paying excess, wages and license fees, for a year, but after paying $300,000 in T/O/ tax actually lost $100 grand.

Yes, he did have winning years, and had the benefit of being able to claim his bookmaking losses against profits that our business made.

But, I have no doubt at all, that had my dad only concentrated on our business, and never been a bookie, I hate to think how much we would have been worth today.

To this day, I can count on the fingers of one hand, how many bookies that started the same time as my father, finished with money, solely out of bookmaking.

Yes, FM, pre 1957, bookmaking was a license to print money, because the PUNTER paid the tax to the race clubs and Government out of winning bets. We used to follow the English system then.

Once the T/O tax came in, it began a slow decline in the profitability of bookmakers, which became a faster decline as the TAB took over, we lost a generation of punters, and the T/O tax took its toll.

Since the 80's SKY, the ability to sit at home and bet, the filthy Corporate's and Betfair have totally changed the landscape of betting in this Country.

In the words of that Joannie Mitchell song, if we are unfortunate to see the total demise of on course bookmaking in this Country, it will be a case of, "you don't know what you've lost till it's gone".

runyon · May 2015

the falcon said:
yes but it was "fun dodgy"...bit of cloak and dagger, whispers behind form guides etc.
nothing really sinister, just the game to beat the bookies.
today its on an entirely new level..millions is involved, the "fun" has gone...now murder and bashings take over from "jeez you're a shady bastard...but good on ya".

I tend to look back on the past through rose coloured glasses to Falc but racing has always had its unsavoury side. In the 80's, trainer George Brown's body was found bashed and set on fire inside a car because he was meant to run a ring-in at Doomben and he didn't go through with it and I reckon there's been plenty of bashings along the way. I can recall a few in WA.

Fastmoney · May 2015

bookielover said:

In the words of that Joannie Mitchell song, if we are unfortunate to see the total demise of on course bookmaking in this Country, it will be a case of, "you don't know what you've lost till it's gone".

Not sure the younger generation see it the same way.

The modern large scale gambler of today has no interest in anything offered by the on course bookmaker.

The ability to gather all the relevant information using the internet, including betting trends on Betfair and fixed odds markets right up to the jump are vital for anyone betting seriously.

Standing in the betting ring hanging out to get half a point more than the tote price when other relevant markets have the price 4 points better and drifting, isn`t smart punting.

If the old school enjoy reminiscing in the bookies ring all well and good but if the Bookies are gone tomorrow it won`t make any difference to the modern gambler.

paraletic · May 2015

When was this race? Was Danny riding in it?

Aquanita · May 2015

Regrettably I agree with your comments Fastmoney but the on course experience is not a shadow of what it once was with vibrant local and interstate ring operating.

I can assure by the late 80s that bookmaking was becoming a very tough caper and you only have to look at the number of resignations in the 80s and 90s to confirm that.

There were no fortunes made during that period and as one bookmaker said "the way to make a small fortune out if bookmaking us to start with a large fortune".

That atmosphere will never return as punters like me stay away from the track in droves.

G'day Punter!

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