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2014 Winterbottom Stakes

West Australian Racing

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  • joffajoffa    122 posts
    dont think so!!!
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  • darkshinesdarkshines    2,837 posts
    The whole BC sideshow got on the nose the minute they changed the rules for her (barriers at MV). All got a bit precious in the end

    therealkramer likes this post.

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  • MobileLinkMobileLink    398 posts
    MobileLink said:

    Frankel would have kicked BC brains in

    BC was nearly beaten in the UK by a horse Frankel would have beaten by panels

    We will never know but I think Frankel would have chewed BC up and spat her out IMHO

    BC was a champion a freak but Frankel was a monster a one off
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  • trojanhorsetrojanhorse    345 posts
    Black Caviar had 25 races.....many of the European and North American horses that are being called champions have only less than half of this. And not all wins. And harness champion with 50 wins maybe is having 100 more races where he is beaten.
    Don't belittle a horse which put focus onto Australia...why do you want to do this?
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  • MobileLinkMobileLink    398 posts
    trojanhorse said:

    Black Caviar had 25 races.....many of the European and North American horses that are being called champions have only less than half of this. And not all wins. And harness champion with 50 wins maybe is having 100 more races where he is beaten.
    Don't belittle a horse which put focus onto Australia...why do you want to do this?

    im not belittling BC like I said she was a freak a champion read again

    Just in my opinion Frankel would have beaten her thats my opinion like i said we will never know
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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts

    :-? this thread is titled 2014 Winterbottom Stakes - are Black Caviar and Frankel nominating <:-P


    :-\"

    therealkramer, oldhendo, RIO likes this post.

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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    Tony Gollan tells he is contemplating running Temple Of Boom in the G1 Winterbottom later this year
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  • theketaminekidtheketaminekid    479 posts
    MobileLink said:


    MobileLink said:

    Frankel would have kicked BC brains in

    BC was nearly beaten in the UK by a horse Frankel would have beaten by panels

    We will never know but I think Frankel would have chewed BC up and spat her out IMHO

    BC was a champion a freak but Frankel was a monster a one off
    Reckon I could outrun Bolt in the 100m sprint if had done his hammy to.

    Fastmoney, RIO likes this post.

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  • PrecisionPrecision    295 posts
    From all the comments (disregarding the Black Caviar v Frankel comments) it seems people are agreeing the Winterbottom is fast becoming our premier race. And fair enough if we can get the best sprinters going to come here that's fantastic and we here in little old Perth get to see the best. In my opinion that's great.

    Now for an out there idea what if we made the Railway WFA. I know that's throwing out 100 years of history but hey we did that by making the Perth Cup a 2400m race. How many very good horses are aimed at a Cox Plate every year and around Underwood Stakes time connections realise they won't stay 2000m especially at the valley? Obviously you can then revert back to the Emerites but if you're a multiple group winner you'll carry he grandstand so if the Railway was WFA and the same prize money as the Emerites which it is surely that's a more attractive option.

    I know that may mean we may never have another local winner but I think we started down that path when we ensured there's no races available to you once your rated above 80.

    trojanhorse likes this post.

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  • DamienWyerDamienWyer    7,985 posts
    Precision said:

    From all the comments (disregarding the Black Caviar v Frankel comments) it seems people are agreeing the Winterbottom is fast becoming our premier race. And fair enough if we can get the best sprinters going to come here that's fantastic and we here in little old Perth get to see the best. In my opinion that's great.

    Now for an out there idea what if we made the Railway WFA. I know that's throwing out 100 years of history but hey we did that by making the Perth Cup a 2400m race. How many very good horses are aimed at a Cox Plate every year and around Underwood Stakes time connections realise they won't stay 2000m especially at the valley? Obviously you can then revert back to the Emerites but if you're a multiple group winner you'll carry he grandstand so if the Railway was WFA and the same prize money as the Emerites which it is surely that's a more attractive option.

    I know that may mean we may never have another local winner but I think we started down that path when we ensured there's no races available to you once your rated above 80.

    Almost guaranteed not to have a local winner and representation, as most would avoid those conditions
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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    The Railway has not been run as a true handicap for a while. If they continue to compress the weights the way they have been then surely they should come up with a new class of race - maybe PRWS ;)
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  • PrecisionPrecision    295 posts
    Does that matter? Melbourne cup may one day get to the point when no locals run but the race is only getting bigger an bigger what's the difference? I actually think the 1600m is the distance neglected in Aus racing. If your a genuine champion miler name your race without carrying huge weights. The one I can think of recently is whobegotyou, genuine champion miler but struggled to find the right race because couldn't stay the 2000m and got weighted out of the rest like the Doncaster. Why not make the Railway the race for these horses? $1m will get horses like him and justify the G1 status and a horse like Luckygray will still be a chance
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  • LeglessLegless    5,108 posts
    The only ones I can think of at 1600m WFA group 1 status are
    Makybe Diva 300k
    Chipping Norton 500k
    George Main 350k

    There are a couple of Mares races - Myer Classic(500k) and Queen of the Turf (1 Mill) and also some 3 yr old races

    Maybe not such a bad idea - $$ wise it would be the premier open WFA 1600m race in Australia

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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    edited June 2014

    Why would you shift to WFA conditions? Mile handicaps are great races. Two weeks after the Railway you have the Scahill Stakes(1400m) and the Kingston Town Classic(1800m) both run under WFA conditions. It was a shame horses like Moment Of Change didn't back up after the Winterbottom. The increase in prize money($125k-$200k) is a step in the right direction. Who knows if it can be a big of enough carrot, there might be grounds to promote it to Group 2 staus and maybe even Group 1 status in the future.
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  • ImportImport    80 posts
    But is there any disadvantage in going to WFA conditions?
    Surely attracting the best possible field you could get would only add more interest to the race?
    Then again I've always been of the opinion that there should always be more WFA/Set Weights races in WA.
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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    Import said:

    But is there any disadvantage in going to WFA conditions?
    Surely attracting the best possible field you could get would only add more interest to the race?
    Then again I've always been of the opinion that there should always be more WFA/Set Weights races in WA.


    If the Railway was WFA you wouldn't have seen Luckygray carry 58kg last year, which was truly memorable. The Doncaster & Newmarket are both handicaps and are in the top 5 races in the country imo.
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  • trojanhorsetrojanhorse    345 posts
    edited June 2014
    Therealkramer....you are correct -we would have seen Luckygrey carry 59kg @ wfa - would that be more memorable?
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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    trojanhorse said:

    Therealkramer....you are correct -we would have seen Luckygrey carry 59kg @ wfa - would that be more memorable?


    No. That win was Luckygray's finest. That's why I arc up when horses like Black Caviar baulk at running in races like the Newmarket. But then Moody put Typhoon Tracy in the paddock after the Coolmore when she could have run in the Doncaster with 51kg as a 3yo filly. I'm not sure how she was a better chance the next year with 56.5kg though? :-?
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  • trojanhorsetrojanhorse    345 posts
    Therealkramer.....you must be punter , not a horse person.....why would a trainer want to start a 3 years old filly in an open handicap against the seasoned horses over mile.in the first full program.....after she has won 4 from four including Group 1 and 3 and listed..... Mr Moody knew job was ....because Typhoon Tracey won purses of $2.4million from 20 runs for 11 wins......be more sensible about saying you should force 3 years old fillies .....
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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    edited June 2014
    trojanhorse said:

    Therealkramer.....you must be punter , not a horse person.....why would a trainer want to start a 3 years old filly in an open handicap against the seasoned horses over mile.in the first full program.....after she has won 4 from four including Group 1 and 3 and listed..... Mr Moody knew job was ....because Typhoon Tracey won purses of $2.4million from 20 runs for 11 wins......be more sensible about saying you should force 3 years old fillies .....


    The way she won the Coolmore she was thrown in at the weights. You can understand Weekend Hussler not running with 60kg (although it was still disappointing). I'm not sure how running the following year with 56.5kg was in the best interest's of the horse's welfare though and she was well beaten.
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  • trojanhorsetrojanhorse    345 posts


    I would have wanted to measure her against past greats. You do that by carrying weight-she should have run in that Newmarket with 61.5kg, .......



    Therealkramer are you for being real......she should have run in Newmarket with 61.5kg but you can understand Weekend Hustler not running with 60kg.......don,t try to be smart when what you say is so stupid......
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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    edited June 2014
    trojanhorse said:



    I would have wanted to measure her against past greats. You do that by carrying weight-she should have run in that Newmarket with 61.5kg, .......



    Therealkramer are you for being real......she should have run in Newmarket with 61.5kg but you can understand Weekend Hustler not running with 60kg.......don,t try to be smart when what you say is so stupid......


    I can understand Weekend Hussler not running just the same as I can Northerly not running with 60kg in the Cup. BUT, what I would have done to witness them try. I was in Melbourne to witness Northerly win the CP. I would have stayed if he'd backed up in the cup. I live in Sydney so I would have gone along to see Weekend Hussler defy history. Absolutely. Remember Weekend Hussler was rated 130 with Timeform for his 3yo season and he won six Group 1s in that time.

    But that is not what this thread is about. The Winterbottom is really building to something. It just annoys me when it doesn't get the respect it deserves. I don't buy the argument that this race is at the end of a lot of horses' preps. Most sprinters run over 1000-1200m so fitness is not an issue. Milers & stayers on the other hand, have a few runs over shorter distances.
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  • trojanhorsetrojanhorse    345 posts
    Therealkramer....it was you who turned it back to Black Caviar.....and then want to get back to topic when no reason to your answer why both horses could not carry 60kg + ......check facts before involving yourself in serious thread.
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  • theketaminekidtheketaminekid    479 posts
    I think you have dug a big enough hole trk so I would quit while you are a little behind you have more holes in your argument than a slice of swiss cheese.
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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    theketaminekid said:

    I think you have dug a big enough hole trk so I would quit while you are a little behind you have more holes in your argument than a slice of swiss cheese.


    What hole? I'm merely trying to bring the discussion back to topic. I'll argue the merits of cotton wooling champs on a separate thread till the cows come home if you like?
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  • SHOVHOGSHOVHOG    1,792 posts
    Black Caviar was a superstar bringing her to perth would have been a complete waste of time.
    Was she kept in cotton wool ? Of course she was keeping her record intact was important to all connections.
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  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    edited June 2014
    SHOVHOG said:

    Black Caviar was a superstar bringing her to perth would have been a complete waste of time.

    Was she kept in cotton wool ? Of course she was keeping her record intact was important to all connections.

    You're right and it is a waste of time discussing a horse that the connections couldn't be bothered running in the race.
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  • SHOVHOGSHOVHOG    1,792 posts
    therealkramer said:

    SHOVHOG said:

    Black Caviar was a superstar bringing her to perth would have been a complete waste of time.

    Was she kept in cotton wool ? Of course she was keeping her record intact was important to all connections.

    You're right and it is a waste of time discussing a horse that the connections couldn't be bothered running in the race.
    Couldn't be bothered ? No the race doesn't mean anything to her cv or most people in this country.
    +1 -1
  • therealkramertherealkramer    8,008 posts
    SHOVHOG said:

    therealkramer said:

    SHOVHOG said:

    Black Caviar was a superstar bringing her to perth would have been a complete waste of time.

    Was she kept in cotton wool ? Of course she was keeping her record intact was important to all connections.

    You're right and it is a waste of time discussing a horse that the connections couldn't be bothered running in the race.
    Couldn't be bothered ? No the race doesn't mean anything to her cv or most people in this country.
    Yeah because the Sangster Classic & Goodwood are so much better

    =))
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  • TiversTivers    7,720 posts
    Fastmoney said:

    therealkramer said:

    The snubbing of the race by Black Caviar was disrespectful and cowardly imo. It also denied the mare the chance of matching the feat achieved by Takeover Target of winning races in all mainland states.

    Tivers said:

    The snubbing of the Hong Kong Sprint was cowardly, and unfortunately as great as she was, is why I will never hold her in the esteem of many before her.

    Are you blokes serious?

    Cowardly????
    Was someone else's word from earlier on I just ran with

    therealkramer likes this post.

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