Rogan Josh............Surely Now?

PC · September 2013

I honestly think (and I could be wrong) that Rogan Josh has been forgotten because he started his career running on the country tracks in the south-west of WA and maybe a lot of people might think along the lines of "Oh he's just a country horse"

I mean lets face it. Miss Andretti, Northerly and Scenic Shot were talked about etc and aknowledged- and fair enough too, but Rogan Josh seems to be forgotten.

Look at Blue Spec - WA's first Melbourne Cup winner. If he can be honoured then so should Rogan Josh. Blue Spec was inducted into WA Racing's Hall of Fame. I would hope Rogan Josh is inducted too down the track or at the very least - has a race named after him.

Rogan Josh won one of the "Big 3" races of the spring racing carnival and not enough recognition has been delivered. For a WA horse to win one of the "Big 3" races truly is a great achievement. Only three WA horses have won the Melbourne Cup: Blue Spec (1905), Black Knight (1984) and Rogan Josh (1999) and you would think Rogan Josh is better of the two.

As I said earlier, I hope Perth Racing look at this thread and seriously consider something cos Joshy deserves it.

AndrewCarter · September 2013

For your information Miss Andretti started her career in the country as well. Rogan Josh was a nice horse but no superstar here in WA and responded to Bart's flemington "magic"

Piston_Broke · September 2013

Well Rogan Josh has a meal named after him, not even Northerly got that.

Because Meliador never won on the East Coast has nothing to do with how much better than Rogan Josh he was, he was a cripple when T J had him, anyone who saw him race and saw Rogan Josh race would not even be bothered to compare them.

Best sprinter I ever saw got beat in Melbourne but was practically unbeatable in WA, his name was Asian Beau. On performances Miss Andretti was better, but IMO she would have not blown wind up his backside if they ever raced together, same goes for Rogan Josh if he had met Meliador.

Meliador raced from July to Jan 1st, won from 1300 1st up got beat 2nd up and G D got the sack, then won 4 on the trot culminating in the Belmont Park Cup, 2 weeks later he won a 1600m welter with 59kgs. Raced Jul, Aug, Sep, Oct, Nov, Dec and Jan. 7 months. Nearly as long a campaign as Taksan and Arwon. After T J had Taksan Eddie Laing got him and won good races with him in Melb

PC · September 2013

Andrew Carter said:
For your information Miss Andretti started her career in the country as well. Rogan Josh was a nice horse but no superstar here in WA and responded to Bart's flemington "magic"

No doubt Rogan Josh wasn't a superstar her in WA. But it's not all about results on the board. In a way it is and in a way it isn't. Rogan Josh did have the ability to be a good horse, but he just needed a good trainer to get that ability out of him. Colin Webster always had a good opinion of Rogan Josh and thought he was good enough for the Melbourne Cup.

Piston_Broke · September 2013

Thought Colin did a remarkable job with the horse, it was actually his suggestion that Bart get the horse

PC · September 2013

Piston_Broke said:
Thought Colin did a remarkable job with the horse, it was actually his suggestion that Bart get the horse

Yep spot on. Pity Rogan Josh couldn't win that Perth Cup, was beaten by a better horse on the day.

Rodent · September 2013

Andrew Carter said:
Btn a lip in a Caulfield cup so Arwon went within an eyelash of the coveted Caulfield Cup - Melbourne Cup double hardly the effort of an average handicapper as its career record suggests finishing in the money 34 times from 67 starts including 16 wins, average handicappers don't boast those sort of records.
Meliador also actually beat Arwon and Taksan at WFA in the Cox Stakes in the lead up to the Perth Cup.
You can hardly get carried away with Rogan Josh's Mackinnon win he beat rebel and oliver twist.

Nice attempt at a straw man argument. Who said Arwon was an "average" handicapper?

You also mention Oliver Twist when you are trying to denigrate the performance of Rogan Josh. Oliver Twist won the MacKinnon the following year to frank the form.

You are being very parochial. You are looking at WA form which makes Meliador look great and Rogan Josh look ordinary. Most people would be more concerned with what they do at the big dance. Meliador was obviously a WA great who had the potential to win on the biggest stage. Rogan Josh not only had the potential but he delivered (thanks to Bart).

thefalcon · September 2013

amen to this thread.....

PC · September 2013

1999 Mackinnon Stakes Field (in finishing order - 2nd placing onwards)

Rebel - before Mackinnon: had won three Group races including one Group 1, after Mackinnon: would go on to win one more Group race

Oliver Twist - before Mackinnon: had won one Listed race and one Group race, after Mackinnon: would go on to win another listed race and three more Group races including two Group 1s

Rebel - before Mackinnon had won three Group races including one Group 1, after Mackinnon: would go on to win two more Group races including one Group 1

Aerosmith - before Mackinnon: had won five Group races including one Group 1, after Mackinnon: would go on to win two more Group races

Intergaze - before Mackinnon: had won one listed race and nine Group races including seven Group 1s, after Mackinnon: would go on to win one Group race including one Group 1

Referral - before Mackinnon: had won four Group races including one Group 1, after Mackinnon: would not win another race.

Arena - before Mackinnon: had won five Group races including two Group 1s, after Mackinnon: would not win another race

Tie The Knot - before Mackinnon: had won two Listed races and nine Group races including seven Group 1s, after Mackinnon: would win another six Group races including six Group 1s

Cent Home - before Mackinnon: had won two Group races including two Group 1s, after Mackinnon: would go on to win three Group races

Rebbor - before Mackinnon: had won one Listed race, after Mackinnon: would not win another race

Londolozi - before Mackinnon: had won one Group race, after Mackinnon: would win one Group race

Skybeau - before Mackinnon: had won two Listed races and two Group races, after Mackinnon: would go on to win one Group race

Lawyer - before Mackinnon: had won two Group races, after Mackinnon: would not win another race.

raconteur · September 2013

PC - got to agree with you -

debate it as long as you like on merit of the strength of that race, but surely ROGAN JOSH as a winner of Australia's greatest race, which was owned and from this state, deserves an accolade - but then so too would BLACK KNIGHT .

and as for ON THE CARPET -pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease - "...broke 33 seconds a couple of times" and "..Group 1 that got away...."

On those criteria DARK TARGET, every other sub 33 sec horse ( eg CLASSY NUGGET ) and every bona fide Group winner should have a race named after them - how about we plant a purple "bogan"_villia in his honour outside the Mens' at Belmont !!!

PC · September 2013

raconteur said:
PC - got to agree with you -

debate it as long as you like on merit of the strength of that race, but surely ROGAN JOSH as a winner of Australia's greatest race, which was owned and from this state, deserves an accolade - but then so too would BLACK KNIGHT .

and as for ON THE CARPET -pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease - "...broke 33 seconds a couple of times" and "..Group 1 that got away...."

On those criteria DARK TARGET, every other sub 33 sec horse ( eg CLASSY NUGGET ) and every bona fide Group winner should have a race named after them - how about we plant a purple "bogan"_villia in his honour outside the Mens' at Belmont !!!

Fair enough

thefalcon · September 2013

pc you are beginning to sound like a broken record.

this thread has run its race..

raconteur · September 2013

Hey GetOnMarasco - when did ON THE SHAGPILE actually achieve these sub 33 sec sectionals - must have been trackwork - as his form shows nothing near that !

AndrewCarter · September 2013

Everyone knows Tie The Knot wasn't a shadow of the horse he was in Sydney in Melbourne he won one race in umpteen attempt in victoria, aerosmith was handy but no star virtually of its big wins were in NZ ditto cent home who ran in the Mackinnonat his last run of a six race prep and flew from NZ to Melbourne after winning the previous Saturday in NZ (never easy to do) and ran down the track as a tired horse and went for a spell immediately following the Mackinnon, skybeau was real two mile handicap plodder, londolozi handy at best, referral another sydney horse that wasnt a shadow of itself in Melbourne. Intergaze gradually improved in its handling of the melbourne direction but still was a vastly superior horse in sydney despite winning the Australian cup I think the following autumn. Arena won the derby as a 3 year old courtesy of a brilliant Larry Cassidy ride and after that never really performed in Melbourne again, Rebbor wasnt much chop, rebel with exception of awin down the straight as 3yo in a group 3 sprint was again all nz group form.
When Oliver twist won it the follwing year it was brillaintly ridden by Oliver and beat an out of form Camarena and Slavonic who struggled at 2000m and a bunch of plodding stayers. That was also when the Macknninon was still basically the trial for Melbourne cup horses not a serious well rewarded Group 1 WFA event and an after thought for the also rans amongst the Cox Plate runners if they pulled up ok from the Cox Plate. Oliver Twist, Rogan Josh, La Bella Dama were 3 nice horses bur hardly stars that won the mackinnon during a three year period, hell even Glass harmonium nice horse but no star won it only two years ago.

Rodent · September 2013

Andrew Carter said:
Everyone knows Tie The Knot wasn't a shadow of the horse he was in Sydney in Melbourne

One could say the same about Arwon and Taksan. They were a shadow of the horses they were in Melbourne when they raced in Perth.

PC · September 2013

Rodent said:

Andrew Carter said:
Everyone knows Tie The Knot wasn't a shadow of the horse he was in Sydney in Melbourne
One could say the same about Arwon and Taksan. They were a shadow of the horses they were in Melbourne when they raced in Perth.

Exactly right and I will even say, would Arwon and Taksan been successful in this era? I doubt it.

raconteur · September 2013

GetonMarasco said:
One was at northam and the other a trial but good for you for wasting your time..... Im sure Carey or someone else can confirm the northam one. Its not a big deal the sun even shines on a dogs ass somedays and times back in 2008 were exceptionally quick compared to the way tracks are prepared today. Its obviously eating you up inside and the classy nugget reference is from you combing over the final sectionals at Belmont looking for the sub 33s?

......ah well that's cleared it up - no time wasted when it involves keeping the record straight - one could be forgiven for thinking that you work for RWWA given the scant regard to details and accountability.

I re plant that bogan _villia for Shaggy !

PC · September 2013

GetonMarasco said:
Arena got crushed in the Melbourne cup as a 3yo and I think every trainer learn't a good lesson.
So you think aside the McKinnon stakes has had some awful winners the past few years......

2007: Sirmione
2008: Theseo
2009: Scenic Shot
2011: Glass Harmonium
2012: Alcopop

Awful winners? All of these winners are multiple Group/Listed winners and all of them except Alcopop are multiple Group 1 winners.

Alcopop won his first Group 1 which happened to be the Mackinnon Stakes, then showed it was no fluke by running a fast finishing third in the Group 1 Hong Kong Cup a month later.

AndrewCarter · September 2013

You blokes are morons, did I list any of those horses as awful winners. NO!!!.
I should know better than to argue with brick walls, the fact remains I saw both horses at their peaks and
Meliador picks up and carries Rogan Josh every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Meliador even won a group race as 2yo which is more than can be said for Rogan Josh.

Ask Jimmy Cassidy how far the The Hind wins by if its not poleaxed.

Anyway like I said a pointless argument.

Meliador had a blistering turn of foot, Rogan Josh was a wind up stayer, there's no comparsion end of story,

Meliador was capable of winning a quality sprint fresh, the same could not be said for Rogan Josh and the only WA stayer I've seen come close to his ability since was Moss Kingdom and before anyone gets on there high horse and says what about Northerly, I'm not classifying Northerly as a stayer, he was an out and out champion effective from 1600m to 2400m.

AndrewCarter · September 2013

Yes arguably one of the worst Hannans in history and one of the worst Kal carnivals on record, didnt even bother watching it today and I always watch the Kal carnival.

PC · September 2013

Andrew Carter said:
You blokes are morons, did I list any of those horses as awful winners. NO!!!.
I should know better than to argue with brick walls, the fact remains I saw both horses at their peaks and
Meliador picks up and carries Rogan Josh every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Meliador even won a group race as 2yo which is more than can be said for Rogan Josh.

Ask Jimmy Cassidy how far the The Hind wins by if its not poleaxed.

Anyway like I said a pointless argument.

Meliador had a blistering turn of foot, Rogan Josh was a wind up stayer, there's no comparsion end of story,

Meliador was capable of winning a quality sprint fresh, the same could not be said for Rogan Josh and the only WA stayer I've seen come close to his ability since was Moss Kingdom and before anyone gets on there high horse and says what about Northerly, I'm not classifying Northerly as a stayer, he was an out and out champion effective from 1600m to 2400m.

Andrew Carter did it ever occur to you that Rogan Josh never won any 2 year-old Group races (unlike Meliador who did), because he never raced until he was 4 year-old? Were you aware of that????

PC · September 2013

Meliador won once at 1300m and once at 1400m. Rogan Josh won four times at 1400m

AndrewCarter · September 2013

Mate I've seen every top WA horse race for the last 30 plus years and I know a good horse when I see one, you by own admission never saw Meliador race, nor do you have any idea in reality about the quality of opposition he consistently encountered and defeated.

In those days our Summer carnival staying features and their lead up were far, far, more competitive than they are today, we actually had some good stayers and middle distance horses going around then because staying races weren't being deliberately marginalised by those in power and those with a vested interest in seeing them fall by the wayside.

Rogan Josh was a good horse, Meliador however stood head and shoulders above him.

PC · September 2013

Andrew Carter said:
Mate I've seen every top WA horse race for the last 30 plus years and I know a good horse when I see one, you by own admission never saw Meliador race, nor do you have any idea in reality about the quality of opposition he consistently encountered and defeated.

In those days our Summer carnival staying features and their lead up were far, far, more competitive than they are today, we actually had some good stayers and middle distance horses going around then because staying races weren't being deliberately marginalised by those in power and those with a vested interest in seeing them fall by the wayside.

Rogan Josh was a good horse, Meliador however stood head and shoulders above him.

Now hang on a minute. The way your going on - you think I know nothing.

Yes I haven't been around as long as you but that doesn't mean I know nothing.

Also, this thread was about Rogan Josh getting some recognition, not a Meliador vs Rogan Josh thread which clearly you started.

AndrewCarter · September 2013

I merely said Meliador deserves a race named after him long before Rogan Josh does and you basically said or implied who on earth is Meliador and that he doesn't compare with Rogan Josh.

Myself and others have since told you that not only does Meliador compare favourably with your precious Rogan Josh but that most good judges consider him to be the superior animal.

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion and while ignorance is one thing, continual blind ignorance in the light of overwhelming evidence is another and you won't even admit that at the bare minimum Meliador was of comparable if not superior ability to Rogan Josh.

Now I have really wasted more than enough of my time trying to provide you with some information about an era you clearly know little about if you choose to still stubbornly believe that you're right then that's your prerogative.

thefalcon · September 2013

do you have a day job, pc?

rwwa by any chance??

PC · September 2013

the falcon said:
do you have a day job, pc?

rwwa by any chance??

I work in Government mate. For your information.

What else do you want to know about me?

Piston_Broke · September 2013

Rodent said:

Andrew Carter said:
Everyone knows Tie The Knot wasn't a shadow of the horse he was in Sydney in Melbourne
One could say the same about Arwon and Taksan. They were a shadow of the horses they were in Melbourne when they raced in Perth.

who would say that? not Harry White, Harry thought Arwon was going super, after his 1st defeat he thought Meliador was lucky, after his 2nd win when Meliador sat outside him and one under a hold his comment was I cant beat that in the Perth Cup, after the Perth Cup he said "I was right" ;)

Piston_Broke · September 2013

the falcon said:
do you have a day job, pc?

rwwa by any chance??

President of roganjosh.com.au

PC · September 2013

Piston_Broke said:

the falcon said:
do you have a day job, pc?

rwwa by any chance??
President of roganjosh.com.au

Clearly not. As I said I work in government. For a Government Agency.

Cheers.

G'day Punter!

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