Karrakatta Plate

TheDiva · March 2012

fuddle dee duddle trialed today over 400m?
must be a substitution for her last fast gallop before Saturday?

[DeletedUser] · March 2012

http://www.rwwa.com.au/cris/racefield.aspx?meeting=15328&race=2

Barrier draw is out.

Tivers · March 2012

Well F me...............
Drew a gate for the first time (in this race) ever !

sniper · March 2012

What has happened to all our staying fillies, what an ordinary field. Why was Amped allowed to be included, last started over 1100m, making up numbers or dangerous.
Going over past winners of the Oaks, Pikey has ridden 2, Browny 2, McGruddy 1, can T.Turner break a frustrating run of placings on some very good fillies over the years, all will be answered on Saturday. Disappointing field anyway.

[DeletedUser] · March 2012

Whats that post got to do with the KK plate ?

DamienWyer · March 2012

18 !!She will need to be everything and more from there

thefalcon · March 2012

18...rotten luck.
at first glance, da, barrier 4 and pjh will do me.

DamienWyer · March 2012

Some talk of Alezan Thunder still looking for a ride to the races from Adelaide. Now drawing 14 (coming into 12 after emergencies) I would think they would consider staying East.

Isn't it amazing how a barrier draw can destroy pre draw calculations as almost without exception, those with ability and a chance to win have drawn ordinary and are almost denied by circumstance any hope.

Darlington Abbey must be very close to heading the market after this draw.

Tivers · March 2012

said:
18...rotten luck.
at first glance, da, barrier 4 and pjh will do me.

Rotten luck ?
She's had 4,3,7&5 to date (and 3,2,2 and now 4 with DA)............was due !

Tivers · March 2012

Just out of interest................A little "where are they now"
(Interestingly - most still going around)

Last year's Karra field (as 3yo's)

1. Night War - still going good

2nd Benny's Halo - last seen running 15L last in Bunbury
3rd Rebel Call - last seen running 16L last Ascot
4th Single Spice - ran a 4th first up in Belgravia. Unplaced since
5th In Edens Honour - running around at Narrogin
6th Valley Girl - 2 starts for a 5th and a last at Belmont
7th Flying Affair - 2nd and a 5th in two Listeds
8th Western Fever - best effort a 6th at Ascot off 3 starts

2nd to 8th all winless since 2011 Karra

9th Irma La Dane - going good. Had 8 starts at 3, got a cheque every start. One win

10th Fort Courage - best efforts 2 x 3rds in Listed races (Aquinita etc). 5th in Guineas. Hasn't won
11th Saxabelle - 2 starts for a 7th and a 2nd

12th Fighters Second - won a class 1 at Narrogin 2 weeks ago

13th Bim Bom Bay - three starts for a 5th and two donuts
14th Classic Blitz - a 4th at Narrogin best effort

15th Internationalist - 2 wins and a 2nd in Albany

16th Miss Safari - 4ths at Belmont, Ascot and Narrogin best returns

thefalcon · March 2012

yeah, i guess the tide has to turn, tivs, but to turn on the eve of "the biggy" is a bit stiff.
still, if she can get 3 wide with cover she's in it up to her eyeballs..

Tivers · March 2012

My heart bleeds
Best we've ever previously drawn was 11 (of 12) and he went shinny on the Thursday !
(would have won it too - UR)

p.s. No offence anyone on the above. Just reading numbers off the page (and I've got one included in there)

Oneputt · March 2012

Watch out for AT. She ran second At 80% fit then see dashitude go out in melb and win who ran 6th in the pewsey vale. Surely she is the one to catch. The barrier draw is probably a good thing for her. It will cost AT owners about 15k to send her to Perth. She should be congratulated for making the trip. She has ran in melb, Adel, gold coast now Perth no other two year old has even attempted that. Go At!!!!

darkshines · March 2012

Cheers Sam.

Didn't Oratorio (AUS) run in 4 states as 2yo

Oneputt · March 2012

Not Sam
Just an interested onlooker.

thefalcon · March 2012

sure he did, darshines...sa, vic & qld for sure.
nsw?

Oneputt · March 2012

I just can't see anything beating AT if she is close to 100%

RIO · March 2012

the barrier draw certainly helps MH and if he doesn't burn as much energy having to search for the lead he may be able to hold on..but DA is ticking all the boxes for me..

trooper · March 2012

Race 8 - Karrakatta Plate (Group 1) 1200m - Win or Place
Saturday, March 31, 2012, 3.00PM
84104 1 El Rijes 17 5.00 W/P
65849 2 Luke`s Luck 13 4.00 W/P
103241 3 Miami Horror 26 7.25 W/P
141564 4 Detection 13 4.00 W/P
199784 5 Our Maxy Boy 101 26 W/P
15636 6 Alezan Thunder 6.50 2.35 W/P
35653 7 Darlington Abbey 3.80 1.70 W/P
44380 8 Miss Solis 3.60 1.65 W/P
51168 9 Fuddle Dee Duddle 15 4.50 W/P
88436 10 Looking Ahead 15 4.50 W/P
102283 11 Keeper Quiet 15 4.50 W/P
105815 12 The Danehill Rose 21 6.00 W/P
113269 13 Keep Fath 101 26 W/P
116707 14 Secret Scandal 31 8.50 W/P
126217 15 Spice Again 31 8.50 W/P
152219 16 Fine Copper 51 13 W/P
188172 17 Nothing Personal (1E) 101 26 W/P
37254 18 Korolenko (2E) 101 26 W/P

reckon i may have something e/w looking ahead.

DamienWyer · March 2012

Tivers,

When I previously mentioned pushing the Karrakatta Plate back into the season, on this forum, I was screamed down. What you have said in not so many words, is that racing 2YO's is just not good for the animal itself, and the proof is the "where are they now?" scenario.

In a State that has those in power that feel that shortening races is the answer to improving quality, it is no wonder that racing babies has now bitten them on the ass as far as producing quality horses that race past 3YO.

The whole notion of a "return on investment" mentality is the underlying cause of the demise of quality horses at 3 years of age and greater.

Your list only proves that theory.

I have said before, but nobody gives a rat?s ass for my opinion on this forum or in the halls of Perth Racing, that 2YO's shouldn't run prior to Jan 1st, and that the feature races for them should be in May into early July.

I doubt WA will breed a Caulfield Cup, Melbourne Cup or Cox Plate winner for years to come as a result of the knock on effect of focusing on early 2YO's and the abandonment of quality middle distance events.

What?s wrong with WA Racing has nothing to do with barrier draws.

FoolsGold · March 2012

There was a very interesting article on breednet.com.au which i think is now on lucianiracing.com.au which offers a contrary view in some regards.

Essentially it states along the lines that according to their studies, horses that race as 2 year olds will have longer and more successful careers than those that don't, provided they are in the hands of the better trainers who know how to train juveniles.

Interesting reading.

FoolsGold · March 2012

I'm not ruling out Miss Solis. Her best attribute may well be her trainer. IMO he has panels on the rest especially when it comes to juveniles. They have had a horror run with barriers in 2 year old feature races. Lets take a look.

Night War 13 of 13 in MM (2nd) . 14/14 Gimcrack(5th after stablemate nearly brought her down). 13/16 Karakatta(1st)

Single Spice drew well in the Supremacy which she won. 13/14 in Gimcrack. 15/16 Karakatta (4th). That year the only horse that fared as bad as these 2 was Internationalist. I imagine that the degree of disappointment with barriers is always directly proportionate to your horse's realistic chances of winning with even luck. For this reason I think they have had rotten luck.

Miss Solis drew lids in the Supremacy and Gimcrack granted but has now drawn 18/18 in the Karakatta.

DA is the exception. Call it WCE success rubbing off if you like.

I think that the barriers are nature's way of levelling the playing field so Miller doesn't win them all too easily.

Jordan · March 2012

Just means you will get a better price for miss solis come race day :wink:

motivated · March 2012

said:
Tivers,

When I previously mentioned pushing the Karrakatta Plate back into the season, on this forum, I was screamed down. What you have said in not so many words, is that racing 2YO's is just not good for the animal itself, and the proof is the "where are they now?" scenario.

In a State that has those in power that feel that shortening races is the answer to improving quality, it is no wonder that racing babies has now bitten them on the ass as far as producing quality horses that race past 3YO.

The whole notion of a "return on investment" mentality is the underlying cause of the demise of quality horses at 3 years of age and greater.

Your list only proves that theory.

I have said before, but nobody gives a rat?s ass for my opinion on this forum or in the halls of Perth Racing, that 2YO's shouldn't run prior to Jan 1st, and that the feature races for them should be in May into early July.

I doubt WA will breed a Caulfield Cup, Melbourne Cup or Cox Plate winner for years to come as a result of the knock on effect of focusing on early 2YO's and the abandonment of quality middle distance events.

What?s wrong with WA Racing has nothing to do with barrier draws.

With all due respect i would strongly disagree...really should be no hard and fast rules about when is the right time for horses to start racing.

The key is the trainer, and also sometimes the owner trusting the trainer. If you push too much too hard for a 2yo that is not ready, it will most def be to the detriment.

I think thats why a couple of the states leading 2yo trainers are so good, as they push when they know they can, and pull up on the ones they know need a break, it is a fine line.

Night War wasnt pushed early in November when it first stepped up, then again after the karrakatta. Come back a nice filly. But im sure he has plenty there this year that are good enough to run in the karrakatta but are not quite ready and mature enough to do so...

And barrier draws are barrier draws, happens every race, will be plenty of speed as always is with a full field of 16 and a 500k race. Most should get their chance.

DamienWyer · March 2012

All this week I am featuring runners in the lead up to the Karrakatta Plate, with a photographic post on my page, and a brief history of the entrant.

Here is the latest, Miami Horror.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Damien-Wyer-Racing-Bloodstock/109650695766611?v=wall#!/photo.php?fbid=323058577759154&set=a.111598982238449.13387.109650695766611&type=1&theater

Ngawyni · March 2012

said:
Tivers,

When I previously mentioned pushing the Karrakatta Plate back into the season, on this forum, I was screamed down. What you have said in not so many words, is that racing 2YO's is just not good for the animal itself, and the proof is the "where are they now?" scenario.

I don't agree either. The only studies I have seen on the effects of 2 yo racing all suggest that it promotes longevity in the breed.

Here's another:

http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2012/02/169.shtml

Anecdotally, as I have posted before, in the last few years Scenic Blast, Shout from Maroof (now Natural Blitz - Hong Kong International Sprint winner Gr 1), Grand Nirvana and plenty of lesser lights like Roman Time, No Questions and Ripped have gone on with it after being placed in the Karakatta. Covertly ran 4th in the Karakatta before winning the Sires and later the Railway. Scenic Shot ran 7th in the Karakatta after winning at his first 2 yo start. Didn't seem to do him any harm.

Go back a bit further and you've got Jacks or Better and Bomber Bill winning the Karakatta and then group 1 races several years later.

Go back a few more years (to when the Karakatta was run on Boxing Day) and you've got La Trice, another Railway winner. Others Karakatta winners like Burgess Queen and Rare Sovereign also went on to win group races at 3.

And of course, Ngawyni, didn't win the Karakatta, but did win the first 2yo race of the season over 900m in October, then went on to win 18 more races to 2600m including the Strickland Stakes, WA Guineas, WA Derby, Hill Stakes, Queen Elizabeth Stakes, Gold Coast Cup, Moonee Valley Cup, PJ O'Shea Stakes, Carlyon Cup and the Australian Cup.

Ngawyni · March 2012

Here's the breednet article FG may have been referring to. It refers to the same study as the link above but also contains links to several other studies which have reached similar conclusions:

http://www.breednet.com.au/news2006.asp?id=77436

dungy · March 2012

Baring Night War over here who has gone on to win at 3,4 and 5 ??
And on the East coast ??

carey · March 2012

said:
Baring Night War over here who has gone on to win at 3,4 and 5 ??
And on the East coast ??

one example would be manikato! :lol:

http://www.racingvictoria.net.au/p_Manikato.aspx

DamienWyer · March 2012

It's not about the Scenic Blasts of the World, as he is an exception to any rule, but it is the 95% who run prior to Christmas each year and do almost nothing for the remainder of their career. My perception may be wrong but I just can't see any benefit other than to a breeding industry aligned to trying to produce early runners at the cost of high quality 3YO's and above.

And to make matters worse, we then send these under achievers to stud in WA to further dilute the next generation of horses offered for sale and raced here in WA.

G'day Punter!

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